#46 President Joe Biden

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!

College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.

You're conflating two things.  Private student loans are not part of forgiveness,  only federal.  That's why I say the rates are fair,  because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year. 

When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.

All true,  but still not part of the Biden program.  I would likely argue that the rates,  by and large,  are not predatory.  Particularity the ones from Discover,  SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile.  And they are not a public service,  they are for profit.  So they should be several points higher than subsidized. 

I think your declared major should play into the risk profile

Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance.  The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status.  It's intuitive.  People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed.  Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate. 

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!

College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.

You're conflating two things.  Private student loans are not part of forgiveness,  only federal.  That's why I say the rates are fair,  because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year. 

When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.

All true,  but still not part of the Biden program.  I would likely argue that the rates,  by and large,  are not predatory.  Particularity the ones from Discover,  SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile.  And they are not a public service,  they are for profit.  So they should be several points higher than subsidized. 

I think your declared major should play into the risk profile

Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance.  The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status.  It's intuitive.  People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed.  Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate. 

Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major.  And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go.  You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.

But my real response to your statement is...duh. no kidding 

I'm telling you this because I'm deeply familiar with bad rate modeling performance for student loans. Majors do not matter.  Trade school vs university does. Graduation status does.  But actual major has no material difference in delinquency or default.  It may be counterintuitive,  but I have 15+ years of data that we've analyzed. 

This is non-subsidized.

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

static111 said:

mace1229 said:

tbergs said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1709569057882542546?t=anTO66tYvKXrQbPwNQSCOg&s=19

So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?

When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents. 

I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction. 

Many people have to take out loans and work several jobs just to go to community college.  Many also had zero financial education.  I think you are viewing student loans as something frivolous.  Not everyone had parents that were willing or could afford to go without to help with school, on top of that the fact that these loans are supposed to help people get an education and better themselves, but instead continually grow and keep people saddled with lifetime debt while making a profit for the government is fucked up.  I don't know how many time I have to say this.   I took out 15k for trade school.  have been paying for almost 10 years now only got below 10k because of the interest rate freeze.  Now that payments and interest are back up if I continue making my payments I will pay 15k over the next 10 years to pay the damn thing off.     All the while my government provided student loan has changed services so many times there is no way to accurately figure out how much I have already paid on my 15K, however I am sure it is well over 20k at this point.  The system is fucked and these people aren't getting free money.  It's trying to fix a broken system.  If these were the terms to get into Trump U half of the people complaining about taking responsibility would be talking about how people got screwed. 

I've told this story before somewhere on here....

I remember visiting my daughter at college several years ago and her roommate was having an issue paying rent because her student loan had not come through yet. These kids were borrowing $25K/year to go to a state school. Roughly $12K tuition and $13K room and board. Insane.

I've also run into people that lived at home, worked full time, and paid their own way. Very smart.

Some people just aren't that smart. These loans were predatory.

Room and board is a joke. It's cheaper to live off campus a lot of the time, and much better conditions.

I wish that were true.  My son's off campus bills are brutal.  Plus you have to take 12 month leases.

The 12 month is the only catch. But even then, when I did it, you split a 2 bedroom apartment 4 ways, costs like $400 in rent. Most meals involve chicken and rice, Mac n cheese or cereal, Maybe not a huge saver, but seemed like it was cheaper. And you get an apartment, not a 10x10 room and a community shower.

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!

College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.

You're conflating two things.  Private student loans are not part of forgiveness,  only federal.  That's why I say the rates are fair,  because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year. 

When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.

All true,  but still not part of the Biden program.  I would likely argue that the rates,  by and large,  are not predatory.  Particularity the ones from Discover,  SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile.  And they are not a public service,  they are for profit.  So they should be several points higher than subsidized. 

I think your declared major should play into the risk profile

Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance.  The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status.  It's intuitive.  People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed.  Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate. 

Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major.  And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go.  You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.

But my real response to your statement is...duh. no kidding 

I'm telling you this because I'm deeply familiar with bad rate modeling performance for student loans. Majors do not matter.  Trade school vs university does. Graduation status does.  But actual major has no material difference in delinquency or default.  It may be counterintuitive,  but I have 15+ years of data that we've analyzed. 

This is non-subsidized.

Any data on who pays it off? I bet you can’t know.

I find that amazing. So someone with an art history major vs say engineering and there is no difference on ability to pay? It’s hard to believe.  Unless art history major is subsidized by parents 

As far as who is making the payments?  No, we dont' look at that.  It's irrelevant.  But if you really wanted to know, you could know.  Every check that is written, every ACH received is scanned and tracked for these companies.   

A good chunk of private student loans have co-signers/guarantors.  That's also a predictor, but I left that part out because they are fundamentally part of the loan.  So yes, certainly the guarantor could be making payments on the art history account. 

You have to understand that in order to analyze it properly, you have to have a statistically significant number of borrowers into these different majors for a particular vintage.  So you don't have that for a number of majors that have few people.  It's easy to compare engineers to nurses to business majors.  It's a little more difficult to throw in music theory and such.  But when you do what I do, I can't just assume certain outcomes without supporting data.  

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!

College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.

You're conflating two things.  Private student loans are not part of forgiveness,  only federal.  That's why I say the rates are fair,  because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year. 

When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.

All true,  but still not part of the Biden program.  I would likely argue that the rates,  by and large,  are not predatory.  Particularity the ones from Discover,  SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile.  And they are not a public service,  they are for profit.  So they should be several points higher than subsidized. 

I would be for lower rates for federal student loans. We don't need to make money off it. I'm for helping people do better.
I guess a better way to say I'm against the forgiveness is mostly 2 reasons. There's no such thing as free money. It's not like China is paying it off for us. If that were the case, I'd be happy for everyone who got it. There's no such thing as free money, just taking it from someone else.

And second, there needs to be an obligation to minimize the cost by the consumer. I've already talked about some. How many kids don't even consider a cheaper school and transferring? Most don't even consider that option. College has become known as a 2 year party and then get serious for the last 2. Kids go off to college, party for 2 years and "find themselves" and are already 40k in debt before they even get serious about school. And it's not uncommon to misuse student loans. I mean, many of them just put money into the account of an 18 year old. Many schools already subsidize tuition based on income. We need to change the culture about how we look at school.
As a teacher I was instructed to not encourage or talk about community school to students. The reason was because the school wanted a higher 4-year university acceptance and attendance rate to publish. Schools will usually post how many of their students got accepted to and attended a 4 year school, if kids are going off to a 2 year school to get their GE credits out of the way first, the school can't brag on them. It made me mad.