*** DONALD J TRUMP HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN INDICTED ***

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 

Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 

Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.

I don’t disagree the Supreme Court could drastically change our country if they were to side with trump

To me it’s a coin toss. At least 3 go with trump regardless.  Thomas and Alito no doubt, and at a minimum one of 3 of trumps picks, maybe more. It’s safe to say there are 4 votes against including Roberts

it’s also why I’m really not supporting an indictment.  The consequences of the Supreme Court will last well beyond trump. It’s a huge risk and playing with fire. I tend to think the Supreme Court case would be the defining moment in the direction of the country 

presidential  powers generally would be what’s at stake. If he declassified them the day he left, they presumably would still be declassified.  There is also an interesting presidential records case reguarding Clinton when the court said he owned the documents. That lawyer is in trumps ear.  That lawyer lost the Clinton case as he wanted access to the files and is trying to use that loss to make trumps case 

again it’s not about trump it’s about presidential power generally.  It’s like how technically roe v Wade wasn’t about abortion specifically it was about a right to privacy.  You can look at what trump did yes, but that’s not really the issue.  The issue is the power a president has generally. Not what he did with that power. That’s what the court would rule on.  As the head of the executive branch there is a strong possibility he has unilateral authority do what he wants with classified documents when he is president.  Otherwise the president is answerable to either the legislative branch or a law created by them. It’s absolutely a problem for people (or judges) who believe in a strong executive 

Footnote at the bottom of page 22:

2 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) does not use the tem1 "classified information.'' but rather criminalizes the wtlawful retention of"information relating to the national defense." The statute does not define "information related to the national defense." but courts have construed it broadly. See Gorin, .. United States. 312 U.S. 19. 28 (1941) (holding that the phrase •'information relating to the national defense" as used in the Espionage Act is a "generic concept of broad connotations. refering to the military and naval establishments and the related activities of national preparedness"). In addition. the information must be "closely held" by the U.S. government. See United States, .. Squil/acote. 221F.3d 542, 579 (4th Cir. 2000) (''[I]nformation made public by the governmment as well as information never protected by the govenment is not national defense information."); United States, .. Morison. 844 F.2d 1057, 1071-72 (4th Cir.1988). Certain courts have also held that the disclosure of the documents must be potentially damaging to the United States. SeeM01ison, 844 F.2d at 1071-72

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 

If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 

If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 

The federal records act is a law,  signed by president Carter.  It applies to the executive branch.  I don't know that you can argue that it doesn't apply.  He can't veto an existing law and certainly did not try during his tenure.

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 

If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 

If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?

I’m not saying I agree.

im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 

I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 

If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 

If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?

I’m not saying I agree.

im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 

I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 

Personally I don’t disagree with anything you are saying.

 I have less faith in our institutions these days though.

instead of piling on with the trump is going to jail train, I tend to be a lot more skeptical 

Like I said before, POOTWH fucked with the wrong people. The type of people who get blown up in a tent along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan by a double agent trying to keep this nation safe from real threats.

static111 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 

Yes that’s true.  

However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 

I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 

If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 

If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?

I’m not saying I agree.

im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 

I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 

Personally I don’t disagree with anything you are saying.

 I have less faith in our institutions these days though.

instead of piling on with the trump is going to jail train, I tend to be a lot more skeptical 

Like I said before, POOTWH fucked with the wrong people. The type of people who get blown up in a tent along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan by a double agent trying to keep this nation safe from real threats.

When has anyone blowing up another person at the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan, or any border for that matter, ever made this nation safer?