I have finally seen enough. Donald Trump will be indicted by a federal grand jury.
You heard me right: I believe Trump will actually be indicted for a criminal offense. Even with all its redactions, the probable cause affidavit published today by the magistrate judge in Florida makes clear to me three essential points:
(1) Trump was in unauthorized possession of national defense information, namely properly marked classified documents.
(2) He was put on notice by the U.S. Government that he was not permitted to retain those documents at Mar-a-Lago.
(3) He continued to maintain possession of the documents (and allegedly undertook efforts to conceal them in different places throughout the property) up until the FBI finally executed a search warrant earlier this month.
That is the ball game, folks. Absent some unforeseen change in factual or legal circumstances, I believe there is little left for the Justice Department to do but decide whether to wait until after the midterms to formally seek the indictment from the grand jury.
The cruelest irony for Trump is that it never needed to be this way.
Put aside that in the chaos following his election loss Trump’s team never undertook the normal procedure for properly sorting through and archiving his presidential records in coordination with the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). Put aside that properly marked classified records were shipped to Mar-a-Lago and sat there for months until he began turning stuff over to NARA in late 2021.
If he had fully cooperated at that point, and returned all of the records to NARA last year, this likely never would have become a criminal matter. DOJ would have declined to take any action, notwithstanding the existence of the classified records, and it would have been a “no harm, no foul” situation. Just another minor story in the Trump saga of incompetence.
But Trump just could not bring himself to play by the rules. He turned over 15 boxes last January but did not turn over all the records. Political operatives from conservative organizations started whispering into his ear that he had legal precedent on his side to refuse to turn over the classified records to NARA (he did not). His lawyers surprisingly wrote a rather condescending letter to DOJ in May 2022, effectively arguing that even if there were still classified records at Mar-a-Lago the FBI lacked the authority to take any criminal action against Trump given his former status as president. Then, in June 2022 after the FBI executed a subpoena to recover more records at Mar-a-Lago, two Trump lawyers wrote (and one signed) a sworn affidavit reassuring the government there were no more classified records at the property.
We now know that statement was not true. The FBI found multiple more classified records, including some with markings for Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI) during the search this month, and not just located in the storage room with the other boxes of records. They found records located in different parts of Mar-a-Lago.
Of course, there are various arguments for why a prosecution might not succeed in this situation.
There is the contention by Trump and his allies that he declassified the documents, whether through a “standing order” or more specific verbal action. No evidence has been produced corroborating that assertion, and there certainly is no indication that the classification markings themselves were ever revised to reflect the declassification. The Trump lawyers in May certainly did not provide any such evidence in their letter to DOJ, and they similarly provided no evidence of it in their “motion” filed earlier this week in district court in Florida seeking a Special Master.
And that is before we even consider if the classification status would matter for an Espionage Act prosecution, which only requires that the information relate to the national defense.
There is also the issue of selective political prosecution and supposed bad faith by the government in its decision to pursue the case. This is something that has been mentioned ad nauseum by Trump allies on cable news, and was briefly mentioned in the “motion” filed earlier this week in court. Lacking from those arguments is anything beyond rank speculation. That will not fly in court. Just ask Sidney Powell how well it works to try to litigate in court the way you argue on cable news. Hint: it does not go well.
All in all, this case should and in my opinion will result in an indictment. Sure, an indictment does not equal a conviction. Trump is still assumed innocent until proven guilty. There are unknown variables like whether the prosecution would occur in Florida or in D.C. We do not know what evidence Trump might have to substantiate his declassification claim. And we do not know what the courts would say about his various arguments.
Get the popcorn ready either way.
Bradley P. Moss is a Partner and national security attorney at the Washington, D.C. Law Office of Mark S. Zaid, P.C. He can be found on Twitter at @BradMossEsq.
what I meant by "this ain't Watergate" I meant that even republicans accepted it was over for nixon. there was no alternate universe where he was being framed or is the rightful president or whatever.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
what I meant by "this ain't Watergate" I meant that even republicans accepted it was over for nixon. there was no alternate universe where he was being framed or is the rightful president or whatever.
indict him now. if the facts are now what they appear to be, he is guilty as hell. why placate his followers by letting him walk? he has broken many laws and he needs to face justice for once in his pathetic life.
i do not care about violence from his supporters. violence is inevitable now. if they do not indict him people will be angry. if they do indict him people will be angry. let those people deal with the national guard.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
what we are seeing now is a direct result of the soft reconstruction following the civil war. the confederates were not punished. the confederate leaders were not punished. the magas now believe that since confederates got away with starting a war that they can do all of this violence and not face any consequences.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
indict him now. if the facts are now what they appear to be, he is guilty as hell. why placate his followers by letting him walk? he has broken many laws and he needs to face justice for once in his pathetic life.
i do not care about violence from his supporters. violence is inevitable now. if they do not indict him people will be angry. if they do indict him people will be angry. let those people deal with the national guard.
No way, his supporters are all internet talkers. Cowards.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
indict him now. if the facts are now what they appear to be, he is guilty as hell. why placate his followers by letting him walk? he has broken many laws and he needs to face justice for once in his pathetic life.
i do not care about violence from his supporters. violence is inevitable now. if they do not indict him people will be angry. if they do indict him people will be angry. let those people deal with the national guard.
No way, his supporters are all internet talkers. Cowards.
not the jan 6 ones. they got him impeached a 2nd time.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
If you don’t think that our intelligence agencies know what was there in regards to intelligence and subsequent actions in the field and/or other intelligence coming in from other sources connecting the dots, you don’t fully grasp how the spook shit goes down. Remember, it was three foreign intelligence agencies that tipped ours off to connections between POOTWH’s campaign and Putin on the ritz, one of which was the head of Britain’s CIA equivalent being so concerned that he jettisoned normal communication protocols to speak directly with our head of CIA. THAT should have gotten everyone’s attention.
This was a year and a half of potential access to our nation’s deepest secrets, including human intel assets that may now very well be dead. It’ll take years to fix this if it ever can be. The Espionage Act is very much in play. And no, POOTWH can’t wave a wand and declassify and treat documents like personal property. He can go to court with whatever attorneys will represent him and he’ll lose.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
Right and that's what we don't know. Nothing in the aff told us that, nor should it really, if they are still investigating that piece of the puzzle. The investigation into whether he had classified docs seems pretty much over and he had them. But I think there is still an investigation into what damage was caused and that would be criminal through the DOJ. Also, the NSA is investigating and doing a damage assessment as well. When that is done, the Select Committee from the House and Senate will be briefed.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
what I meant by "this ain't Watergate" I meant that even republicans accepted it was over for nixon. there was no alternate universe where he was being framed or is the rightful president or whatever.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
Lol. Whether it was classified or not is not an issue.. Donald Trump does not have security clearance. He literally stole top secret documents, that I believe are only supposed to be reviewed in a SKIF, and refused to return them. Any other person who did that would be in jail right now.
Also, I find it odd that it doesn't make you a little uneasy that you cannot come up with a single good reason why an ex president, who was notorious for not even reading his daily briefing, took these documents, lied about having them, then refused to return them? You think that merits a slap on the wrist? Really? The difference between this and Qanon stuff is that this....actually happened.
This shit wasn't the White House dinner menu of hamberders served with ketchup. Or transcripts of press conferences that were broadcast on major television outlets. This shit was highly classified information that put our national security at risk. NATIONAL. SECURITY. AT. RISK.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
This shit wasn't the White House dinner menu of hamberders served with ketchup. Or transcripts of press conferences that were broadcast on major television outlets. This shit was highly classified information that put our national security at risk. NATIONAL. SECURITY. AT. RISK.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
What a Sh................. country.
#putinontheritziswinning
Moving the goal posts is quite the popular game for a lot of people in the country nowadays. Sheesh.
So I read the redacted affidavit (and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Trump Made It A Felony To Mishandle Classified Documents In 2018
Few details have been made public as to why, exactly, the FBI and Department of Justice felt the urgent need to raid former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort on Monday.
Reports indicate Trump had been holding onto materials that were supposed to have been turned over to the National Archives. But officials have not commented on what was contained in those records ― and whether there are implications for U.S. national security.
The lack of information leaves only speculation about what sort of potential criminal activity the Department of Justice is looking into.
Tucked into a bill Trump signed into law in January 2018 was a provision increasing the punishment for knowingly removing classified materials with the intent to retain them at an “unauthorized location.”
Previously, someone found guilty of this crime could face up to one year in prison. When former CIA Director David Petraeus was charged in 2015 with mishandling classified data, he pleaded guilty under this statute to avoid a felony charge, as Politico pointed out. A similar situation unfolded a decade earlier, when former national security adviser Samuel Berger pleaded guilty to removing terrorism-related materials from the National Archives in 2005.
Now, a person convicted of violating this law can face up to five years in prison ― making it a felony-level offense to mishandle classified documents under 18 U.S.C. 1924.
Could 2018 Trump have unknowingly put 2022 Trump in a tough spot?
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
Qanon dot connecting? 99.9% likely he used the info for cash and leverage business deals with foreign countries. He has a long history of corrupt deals, and people with personality disorders don’t change their behavior patterns.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
Qanon dot connecting? 99.9% likely he used the info for cash and leverage business deals with foreign countries. He has a long history of corrupt deals, and people with personality disorders don’t change their behavior patterns.
Yeah that could be true. Until it is proved it is just speculation though. I don't think anyone has seen any evidence yet to prove those documents made the nation less safe than say the things that the government did that Snowden, Assange, Manning etc blew the whistle on. Again if it can be proved that Trump did all these terrible things and put the nation at risk, make the punishment fit the crime. Until then all that any of us on the moving train can come up with is purely speculatory.
This shit wasn't the White House dinner menu of hamberders served with ketchup. Or transcripts of press conferences that were broadcast on major television outlets. This shit was highly classified information that put our national security at risk. NATIONAL. SECURITY. AT. RISK.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
What a Sh................. country.
#putinontheritziswinning
Moving the goal posts is quite the popular game for a lot of people in the country nowadays. Sheesh.
Am I moving the goal posts? I am just looking for clear evidence of the egregious crimes that presumably everyone but me has proof of. I see it as a case of dumb ass put the papers in the wrong folder. Are people suggesting that we just throw our legal system out the window because we believe Donald Trump deserves to be punished for something? To reiterate, if there was something done that made us all so much more unsafe than anything else our government has done in the past century, then yes please make an example.
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
Qanon dot connecting? 99.9% likely he used the info for cash and leverage business deals with foreign countries. He has a long history of corrupt deals, and people with personality disorders don’t change their behavior patterns.
Yeah that could be true. Until it is proved it is just speculation though. I don't think anyone has seen any evidence yet to prove those documents made the nation less safe than say the things that the government did that Snowden, Assange, Manning etc blew the whistle on. Again if it can be proved that Trump did all these terrible things and put the nation at risk, make the punishment fit the crime. Until then all that any of us on the moving train can come up with is purely speculatory.
This shit wasn't the White House dinner menu of hamberders served with ketchup. Or transcripts of press conferences that were broadcast on major television outlets. This shit was highly classified information that put our national security at risk. NATIONAL. SECURITY. AT. RISK.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
What a Sh................. country.
#putinontheritziswinning
Moving the goal posts is quite the popular game for a lot of people in the country nowadays. Sheesh.
Am I moving the goal posts? I am just looking for clear evidence of the egregious crimes that presumably everyone but me has proof of. I see it as a case of dumb ass put the papers in the wrong folder. Are people suggesting that we just throw our legal system out the window because we believe Donald Trump deserves to be punished for something? To reiterate, if there was something done that made us all so much more unsafe than anything else our government has done in the past century, then yes please make an example.
what more evidence do you need that trump will 100% of the time put himself and his interests before the united states of america?
the fact that he had the documents in his unsecured home, did not handle them correctly, and did not return them when asked several times, and even lied about returning them is all part of a felony and he needs to be indicted and tried. reality winter got 5 years for one document. trump had and withheld over 300.
i believe he may have been holding on to those documents to help him to make money because we all know he is going broke.
i can't believe after all you have seen the last 7 years that you can still defend him.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
Qanon dot connecting? 99.9% likely he used the info for cash and leverage business deals with foreign countries. He has a long history of corrupt deals, and people with personality disorders don’t change their behavior patterns.
Yeah that could be true. Until it is proved it is just speculation though. I don't think anyone has seen any evidence yet to prove those documents made the nation less safe than say the things that the government did that Snowden, Assange, Manning etc blew the whistle on. Again if it can be proved that Trump did all these terrible things and put the nation at risk, make the punishment fit the crime. Until then all that any of us on the moving train can come up with is purely speculatory.
This shit wasn't the White House dinner menu of hamberders served with ketchup. Or transcripts of press conferences that were broadcast on major television outlets. This shit was highly classified information that put our national security at risk. NATIONAL. SECURITY. AT. RISK.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
What a Sh................. country.
#putinontheritziswinning
Moving the goal posts is quite the popular game for a lot of people in the country nowadays. Sheesh.
Am I moving the goal posts? I am just looking for clear evidence of the egregious crimes that presumably everyone but me has proof of. I see it as a case of dumb ass put the papers in the wrong folder. Are people suggesting that we just throw our legal system out the window because we believe Donald Trump deserves to be punished for something? To reiterate, if there was something done that made us all so much more unsafe than anything else our government has done in the past century, then yes please make an example.
what more evidence do you need that trump will 100% of the time put himself and his interests before the united states of america?
the fact that he had the documents in his unsecured home, did not handle them correctly, and did not return them when asked several times, and even lied about returning them is all part of a felony and he needs to be indicted and tried. reality winter got 5 years for one document. trump had and withheld over 300.
i believe he may have been holding on to those documents to help him to make money because we all know he is going broke.
i can't believe after all you have seen the last 7 years that you can still defend him.
quoting because i forgot to mention the fact that he has had several excuses and dubious justifications for having them in the first place and not returning them. he has been heard to have said "they are not their documents, they are mine." his legal defense has changed 3 or 4 times in the last 2 weeks.
come on man. what have you heard that makes you think he may have made an innocent mistake?
this is the man that said to introduce bleach into the body and also introduce a very powerful light into the body for covid. it is quite possible that he is a very stupid man, AND has criminal intent in everything that he does.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
So I read the redacted affidavit(and footnotes). can someone please tell me if I am missing something? Basically inept former POTUS did not properly store documents that may or may not have been classified due to the nature of his presidential authority concerning declassification. Said declassification authority will probably go to the courts for a final answer. I saw no mention of selling or divulging secrets to hostile foreign powers. After 6 years is the best we can do that former guy didn't store documents in an approved location? I mean I want to see him get brought up on charges, but based on my reading of the affidavit I personally think he walks and maybe scores some witch hunt points, and that some of you are going to be extremely let down yet again.
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
So let's be clear, the NARA and DOJ never said they were prepared to charge him criminally. The affidavit and search warrant was put before the court to forcibly return documents to the custody of the US gov't, consistent with the presidential records act of 78. This was necessitated because team Trump first 1. Refused to turn them over 2. Turned over some 3. Signed an affidavit that they were all turned over, but that turned out to be false. And the nature of the held documents were determined to be extremely sensitive in nature that have differentiated requirements related to possession and storage.
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This clears things up and takes things out of the fever dream that some people seem to be living in. It seems that it may be a case of a records violation when framed like this. If that is the case I don't see a former president getting much more than a slap on the wrist unless he actually knowingly divulged secrets from said documents to hostile foreign governments.
What do you think he was doing with these top secret documents that he and his lawyers lied about having in the first place and then refused to return when asked?
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
Qanon dot connecting? 99.9% likely he used the info for cash and leverage business deals with foreign countries. He has a long history of corrupt deals, and people with personality disorders don’t change their behavior patterns.
Yeah that could be true. Until it is proved it is just speculation though. I don't think anyone has seen any evidence yet to prove those documents made the nation less safe than say the things that the government did that Snowden, Assange, Manning etc blew the whistle on. Again if it can be proved that Trump did all these terrible things and put the nation at risk, make the punishment fit the crime. Until then all that any of us on the moving train can come up with is purely speculatory.
This shit wasn't the White House dinner menu of hamberders served with ketchup. Or transcripts of press conferences that were broadcast on major television outlets. This shit was highly classified information that put our national security at risk. NATIONAL. SECURITY. AT. RISK.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
What a Sh................. country.
#putinontheritziswinning
Moving the goal posts is quite the popular game for a lot of people in the country nowadays. Sheesh.
Am I moving the goal posts? I am just looking for clear evidence of the egregious crimes that presumably everyone but me has proof of. I see it as a case of dumb ass put the papers in the wrong folder. Are people suggesting that we just throw our legal system out the window because we believe Donald Trump deserves to be punished for something? To reiterate, if there was something done that made us all so much more unsafe than anything else our government has done in the past century, then yes please make an example.
Applying a subjective safety determination as to whether or not he should be indicted would be throwing the legal system out the window.
Comments
tock
It’s Over: Trump Will Be Indicted
I have finally seen enough. Donald Trump will be indicted by a federal grand jury.
You heard me right: I believe Trump will actually be indicted for a criminal offense. Even with all its redactions, the probable cause affidavit published today by the magistrate judge in Florida makes clear to me three essential points:
(1) Trump was in unauthorized possession of national defense information, namely properly marked classified documents.
(2) He was put on notice by the U.S. Government that he was not permitted to retain those documents at Mar-a-Lago.
(3) He continued to maintain possession of the documents (and allegedly undertook efforts to conceal them in different places throughout the property) up until the FBI finally executed a search warrant earlier this month.
That is the ball game, folks. Absent some unforeseen change in factual or legal circumstances, I believe there is little left for the Justice Department to do but decide whether to wait until after the midterms to formally seek the indictment from the grand jury.
The cruelest irony for Trump is that it never needed to be this way.
Put aside that in the chaos following his election loss Trump’s team never undertook the normal procedure for properly sorting through and archiving his presidential records in coordination with the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). Put aside that properly marked classified records were shipped to Mar-a-Lago and sat there for months until he began turning stuff over to NARA in late 2021.
If he had fully cooperated at that point, and returned all of the records to NARA last year, this likely never would have become a criminal matter. DOJ would have declined to take any action, notwithstanding the existence of the classified records, and it would have been a “no harm, no foul” situation. Just another minor story in the Trump saga of incompetence.
But Trump just could not bring himself to play by the rules. He turned over 15 boxes last January but did not turn over all the records. Political operatives from conservative organizations started whispering into his ear that he had legal precedent on his side to refuse to turn over the classified records to NARA (he did not). His lawyers surprisingly wrote a rather condescending letter to DOJ in May 2022, effectively arguing that even if there were still classified records at Mar-a-Lago the FBI lacked the authority to take any criminal action against Trump given his former status as president. Then, in June 2022 after the FBI executed a subpoena to recover more records at Mar-a-Lago, two Trump lawyers wrote (and one signed) a sworn affidavit reassuring the government there were no more classified records at the property.
We now know that statement was not true. The FBI found multiple more classified records, including some with markings for Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI) during the search this month, and not just located in the storage room with the other boxes of records. They found records located in different parts of Mar-a-Lago.
Of course, there are various arguments for why a prosecution might not succeed in this situation.
There is the contention by Trump and his allies that he declassified the documents, whether through a “standing order” or more specific verbal action. No evidence has been produced corroborating that assertion, and there certainly is no indication that the classification markings themselves were ever revised to reflect the declassification. The Trump lawyers in May certainly did not provide any such evidence in their letter to DOJ, and they similarly provided no evidence of it in their “motion” filed earlier this week in district court in Florida seeking a Special Master.
And that is before we even consider if the classification status would matter for an Espionage Act prosecution, which only requires that the information relate to the national defense.
Trump’s Coup Attempt Will Always Be a Way Worse Crime Than Stealing Documents
There is also the issue of selective political prosecution and supposed bad faith by the government in its decision to pursue the case. This is something that has been mentioned ad nauseum by Trump allies on cable news, and was briefly mentioned in the “motion” filed earlier this week in court. Lacking from those arguments is anything beyond rank speculation. That will not fly in court. Just ask Sidney Powell how well it works to try to litigate in court the way you argue on cable news. Hint: it does not go well.
All in all, this case should and in my opinion will result in an indictment. Sure, an indictment does not equal a conviction. Trump is still assumed innocent until proven guilty. There are unknown variables like whether the prosecution would occur in Florida or in D.C. We do not know what evidence Trump might have to substantiate his declassification claim. And we do not know what the courts would say about his various arguments.
Get the popcorn ready either way.
Bradley P. Moss is a Partner and national security attorney at the Washington, D.C. Law Office of Mark S. Zaid, P.C. He can be found on Twitter at @BradMossEsq.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
i do not care about violence from his supporters. violence is inevitable now. if they do not indict him people will be angry. if they do indict him people will be angry. let those people deal with the national guard.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I am not getting the same feeling that this is finally the damning evidence we have been waiting for that seems pretty prevalent amongst liberal circles these days.
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
The question that the MEDIA asks is whether removing them from the custody of the gov't and obstructing the gov't from retrieving them is criminal. From that first day, I posted here that I wonder if the limit of the DOJ's involvement is simply to retrieve the documents. Nothing that I have learned since then has informed me that is or is not the limit of what will happen.
This was a year and a half of potential access to our nation’s deepest secrets, including human intel assets that may now very well be dead. It’ll take years to fix this if it ever can be. The Espionage Act is very much in play. And no, POOTWH can’t wave a wand and declassify and treat documents like personal property. He can go to court with whatever attorneys will represent him and he’ll lose.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
I have no idea what he was doing. I can speculate all day and start my own Qanon type dot connecting, but that is all speculation. From a court standpoint they can argue that they didn't believe that they had anything they shouldn't because it was all declassified, and it will likely be answered by the courts. Other than that I just see a lot of wishing and speculation.
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
Also, I find it odd that it doesn't make you a little uneasy that you cannot come up with a single good reason why an ex president, who was notorious for not even reading his daily briefing, took these documents, lied about having them, then refused to return them? You think that merits a slap on the wrist? Really? The difference between this and Qanon stuff is that this....actually happened.
The amount of "I'll believe it when I see it" and excuse making is beyond me. Its why we are where we are and why POOTWH keeps pulling shit. Because otherwise normal, intelligent people say, "ha, no way was he up to no good, just a political vendetta and as POTUS, until it goes to court, no biggie."
And today its reported that NARA still doesn't think everything has been returned. Ho, ho, fucking hummmmmmmm.
What a Sh................. country.
#putinontheritziswinning
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-made-felony-mishandle-classified-172104317.html
Trump Made It A Felony To Mishandle Classified Documents In 2018
Few details have been made public as to why, exactly, the FBI and Department of Justice felt the urgent need to raid former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort on Monday.
Reports indicate Trump had been holding onto materials that were supposed to have been turned over to the National Archives. But officials have not commented on what was contained in those records ― and whether there are implications for U.S. national security.
The lack of information leaves only speculation about what sort of potential criminal activity the Department of Justice is looking into.
Oddly enough, one of the multiple laws covering the mishandling of government information is one that Trump himself amended during his tenure in the Oval Office, as pointed out by Tennessee state Sen. Jeff Yarbro (D) on Twitter.
Tucked into a bill Trump signed into law in January 2018 was a provision increasing the punishment for knowingly removing classified materials with the intent to retain them at an “unauthorized location.”
Previously, someone found guilty of this crime could face up to one year in prison. When former CIA Director David Petraeus was charged in 2015 with mishandling classified data, he pleaded guilty under this statute to avoid a felony charge, as Politico pointed out. A similar situation unfolded a decade earlier, when former national security adviser Samuel Berger pleaded guilty to removing terrorism-related materials from the National Archives in 2005.
Now, a person convicted of violating this law can face up to five years in prison ― making it a felony-level offense to mishandle classified documents under 18 U.S.C. 1924.
Could 2018 Trump have unknowingly put 2022 Trump in a tough spot?
We don’t yet know.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Am I moving the goal posts? I am just looking for clear evidence of the egregious crimes that presumably everyone but me has proof of. I see it as a case of dumb ass put the papers in the wrong folder. Are people suggesting that we just throw our legal system out the window because we believe Donald Trump deserves to be punished for something? To reiterate, if there was something done that made us all so much more unsafe than anything else our government has done in the past century, then yes please make an example.
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
the fact that he had the documents in his unsecured home, did not handle them correctly, and did not return them when asked several times, and even lied about returning them is all part of a felony and he needs to be indicted and tried. reality winter got 5 years for one document. trump had and withheld over 300.
i believe he may have been holding on to those documents to help him to make money because we all know he is going broke.
i can't believe after all you have seen the last 7 years that you can still defend him.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
come on man. what have you heard that makes you think he may have made an innocent mistake?
this is the man that said to introduce bleach into the body and also introduce a very powerful light into the body for covid. it is quite possible that he is a very stupid man, AND has criminal intent in everything that he does.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."