SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States)

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  • Posts: 30,955
    Were POOTWH’s nominees lying then? Do you think Senator Collins was misled? Something “settled” 50 years ago is overturned and there was never a doubt it would be? What are you saying by that? Precedent, stasis or decises cisise or whatever it is, I’m tired, is out the window? How often does this happen? RvW was supposedly “settled” 50 years ago. And here we are.
    How could one ever argue that something is settled forever when we have Brown, Plessy and other cases that overrode previous precedent?  That's naive.  
  • Posts: 30,955
    Red state state legislatures are passing laws to take the power to confirm electors away from the Secretary of State and popular vote and having it reside in the legislature. Because states rights.
    Who has passed the law?  I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'd like to read it.  
  • Posts: 8,276
    edited June 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    That's an extrapolation based on the extreme example of the plenary legislature.  Gerrymandering without the benefit of judicial oversight IF not in the state constitution, would be the clear risk.  You are assuming, based on this article, that alternate electors that disenfranchise the actual voters of the states, would be the next step.  However, most (I didn't do a survey) state constitutions require the sec'y of state to certify electors based on the popular winner of the state.  If a state constitution has such a provision, no legislature can simply step in and circumvent the constitution. 


    I’d first contend that one topic the conservative justices have always agreed with conservative plaintiffs are election related cases. The only case I recall them not siding with the conservative argument in a voting rights type case is in fact the NC gerrymander case from a few years ago.

    That is the essential point. This case is the NC republicans response to that loss, trying to circumvent that ruling, which basically said the court will not get involved in state court rulings on state level political voting cases. So why even listen to some cheap attempt to relitigate a case they just decided?? Six three, that’s why

    So if the state courts are being circumvented, how is the state constitution stepping in? Further, I am fairly certain this case will argue that Secretary of State certificates are unconstitutional, as the US constitution clearly places that power with state legislatures, which of course are heavily gerrymandered and out of reach of Dems in at least four SWING states. This is the ultimate power grab, and could make the electoral college out of reach to Dems for decades
  • Posts: 30,955


    I’d first contend that one topic the conservative justices have always agreed with conservative plaintiffs are election related cases. The only case I recall them not siding with the conservative argument in a voting rights type case is in fact the NC gerrymander case from a few years ago.

    That is the essential point. This case is the NC republicans response to that loss, trying to circumvent that ruling, which basically said the court will not get involved in state court rulings on state level political voting cases. So why even listen to some cheap attempt to relitigate a case they just decided?? Six three, that’s why

    So if the state courts are being circumvented, how is the state constitution stepping in? Further, I am fairly certain this case will argue that Secretary of State certificates are unconstitutional, as the US constitution clearly places that power with state legislatures, which of course are heavily gerrymandered and out of reach of Dems in at least four SWING states. This is the ultimate power grab, and could make the electoral college out of reach to Dems for decades
    State Constitutions supersede everything but federal law and the US Constitution.  I don't think there is anything that argues that a state legislature can violate a state constitution.  It's literally the organizing document of a state. 
  • Posts: 42,945
    mrussel1 said:
    How could one ever argue that something is settled forever when we have Brown, Plessy and other cases that overrode previous precedent?  That's naive.  
    You said, “no question it would eventually be overruled.” And it had been settled and enjoys overwhelming majority support amongst the public. Not the same in the two cases you mentioned.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;

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  • Posts: 42,945


    I’d first contend that one topic the conservative justices have always agreed with conservative plaintiffs are election related cases. The only case I recall them not siding with the conservative argument in a voting rights type case is in fact the NC gerrymander case from a few years ago.

    That is the essential point. This case is the NC republicans response to that loss, trying to circumvent that ruling, which basically said the court will not get involved in state court rulings on state level political voting cases. So why even listen to some cheap attempt to relitigate a case they just decided?? Six three, that’s why

    So if the state courts are being circumvented, how is the state constitution stepping in? Further, I am fairly certain this case will argue that Secretary of State certificates are unconstitutional, as the US constitution clearly places that power with state legislatures, which of course are heavily gerrymandered and out of reach of Dems in at least four SWING states. This is the ultimate power grab, and could make the electoral college out of reach to Dems for decades
    He’s not getting it. Let’s bookmark this and put it in our calendars to revisit in five years.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;

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  • Posts: 30,955
    You said, “no question it would eventually be overruled.” And it had been settled and enjoys overwhelming majority support amongst the public. Not the same in the two cases you mentioned.
    I said "could", not would.  

    I don't think majority support should ever be a consideration.  When Loving v Virginia was ruled in favor of Loving (legalizing interracial marriage), polling indicated overwhelming support for such illegalization. Didn't make it right.  
  • Posts: 8,276
    I think this is their ultimate goal,

    the Pres­id­en­tial Elect­ors Clause, which reads, “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legis­lature thereof may direct, a Number of Elect­ors.”



    if they interpret that in the exact language it is written, it is possible to rule Secretary of State certifications as unconstitutional, and the GOP controls naming of electors in swing states. In normal times I’d agree it’s far fetched, but this week has changed the meaning of a six three world.
  • Posts: 2,034
    I think this is their ultimate goal,

    the Pres­id­en­tial Elect­ors Clause, which reads, “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legis­lature thereof may direct, a Number of Elect­ors.”



    if they interpret that in the exact language it is written, it is possible to rule Secretary of State certifications as unconstitutional, and the GOP controls naming of electors in swing states. In normal times I’d agree it’s far fetched, but this week has changed the meaning of a six three world.
    Ironic that the intent of the electoral college was to prevent an unqualified populist form becoming president in the first place.  These people were supposed to be the adults in the room, taking the popular vote into account. Not bound by it 
  • Posts: 8,276
    Ironic that the intent of the electoral college was to prevent an unqualified populist form becoming president in the first place.  These people were supposed to be the adults in the room, taking the popular vote into account. Not bound by it 

    Yes but they were also worried that the people weren’t qualified to make good choices, so the electoral college was born. But that leaves us with the what if someone unqualified like trump wins. So in the wake of trump, we have folks like DeSantis and the NC GOP trying to do things unimaginable five years ago. If there are no provisions for a Secretary of State, whose to say gerrymandered state legislatures will be left to decide presidential elections? In a six three world, anything’s possible.
  • Mar-A-Lago Posts: 22,642
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022

    Yes but they were also worried that the people weren’t qualified to make good choices, so the electoral college was born. But that leaves us with the what if someone unqualified like trump wins. So in the wake of trump, we have folks like DeSantis and the NC GOP trying to do things unimaginable five years ago. If there are no provisions for a Secretary of State, whose to say gerrymandered state legislatures will be left to decide presidential elections? In a six three world, anything’s possible.
    All I’m saying is not using the electoral college as intended is the best argument for getting rid of it.

    straight popular vote won’t happen for obvious reasons  but keeping the electoral college and not using it as intended makes no sense 

    a straight popular vote eliminates the entire concept of swing states with 5000 vote margins 
  • Posts: 8,276

    It keeps getting better. They should call a vote to impeach him, just to raise this as an election issue. So they can attack any and every swing state Republican running in Nov voting to support him as being anti science anti health.
  • Posts: 8,276
    All I’m saying is not using the electoral college as intended is the best argument for getting rid of it.

    straight popular vote won’t happen for obvious reasons  but keeping the electoral college and not using it as intended makes no sense 

    a straight popular vote eliminates the entire concept of swing states with 5000 vote margins 


    If I understand the nuance, they won’t just throw out a states popular vote count. But if they ultimately get the court to redefine the  Pres­id­en­tial Elect­ors Clause based on a literal interpretation of its language, at a minimum, they are hoping to hand the power to decide close elections, recounts, throwing out ballots, etc in the state legislatures hands. 

    This is an attempt to give swing states more power, not less.

    This is the republicans attempt to legitimize the steps trump took to claim the election was rigged. If this clause is redefined, at a minimum it gives the next trump more power to overturn an election on the state level. So the next January sixth May not even happen, because they could manage or even override the state certification process. How this is not a five alarm fire to moderates, is stunning to me.

    If the naysayers are right, why even hear this case?
  • Posts: 30,955


    If I understand the nuance, they won’t just throw out a states popular vote count. But if they ultimately get the court to redefine the  Pres­id­en­tial Elect­ors Clause based on a literal interpretation of its language, at a minimum, they are hoping to hand the power to decide close elections, recounts, throwing out ballots, etc in the state legislatures hands. 

    This is an attempt to give swing states more power, not less.

    This is the republicans attempt to legitimize the steps trump took to claim the election was rigged. If this clause is redefined, at a minimum it gives the next trump more power to overturn an election on the state level. So the next January sixth May not even happen, because they could manage or even override the state certification process. How this is not a five alarm fire to moderates, is stunning to me.

    If the naysayers are right, why even hear this case?
    The case isn't about electors. 

    Yes the Constitution says what was quoted,  but that authority,  through law or state constitution,  has been generally delegated to the SOS, based on popular voting.  So yes,  a legislature could take that power back,  but only through an amendment or other means.  Not by fiat or a theory of plenary powers. 
  • St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,657


    If I understand the nuance, they won’t just throw out a states popular vote count. But if they ultimately get the court to redefine the  Pres­id­en­tial Elect­ors Clause based on a literal interpretation of its language, at a minimum, they are hoping to hand the power to decide close elections, recounts, throwing out ballots, etc in the state legislatures hands. 

    This is an attempt to give swing states more power, not less.

    This is the republicans attempt to legitimize the steps trump took to claim the election was rigged. If this clause is redefined, at a minimum it gives the next trump more power to overturn an election on the state level. So the next January sixth May not even happen, because they could manage or even override the state certification process. How this is not a five alarm fire to moderates, is stunning to me.

    If the naysayers are right, why even hear this case?
    Inflation.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
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  • Posts: 30,955
    edited June 2022
    OnWis97 said:
    Inflation.
    We're moderates because we don't overreact to media cycle.  This thread is an excellent example. Zero to do with inflation.  I can walk and chew gum. 
  • Posts: 42,945
    mrussel1 said:
    Who has passed the law?  I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'd like to read it.  
    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-may-2021
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;

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  • Posts: 30,955
    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-may-2021
    Quick glance and I don't see any that say the legislature can override the popular vote.  

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