The Great Drummer Debate

13

Comments

  • Stephen Flow
    Stephen Flow Posts: 3,327
    Matt all the way.

    Even when he was playing In My Tree in 2000 (the right way), it sounded amazing...

    Just because those songs have worldy, tribal feel to them does not mean that they are any harder to play... that's just a stupid fucking logic.

    And for that matter, the studio version of WMA has many many layers of drums, the drum part is on a fucking loop. I have a hard time believing that Matt would loop a drum track during a recording.
  • Niko80
    Niko80 Posts: 1,613
    I like matt, but the guy plays way too fast.

    Dave A's tempo was slower and fit the songs better. He was also alot more creative! Some small things he did, like pausing his drumming in 'black' in 1994, leaving Eddie and Stone to do that little part just the two of them... Perfect! His jamming in Porch was also really impressive.
    I will swallow poison
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    If you get Jack Iron's solo record, you will know what an amazing percussionist he is.

    That said, I don't think Matt has come close to his brilliant work on the last two Soundgarden albums. He was phenomenal on Down on the Upside.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • digster
    digster Posts: 1,293
    Stephen Flow wrote:
    Matt all the way.

    Even when he was playing In My Tree in 2000 (the right way), it sounded amazing...

    Just because those songs have worldy, tribal feel to them does not mean that they are any harder to play... that's just a stupid fucking logic.

    And for that matter, the studio version of WMA has many many layers of drums, the drum part is on a fucking loop. I have a hard time believing that Matt would loop a drum track during a recording.

    Those In My Tree performances from 2000 I think are a good example of what was lost when Jack left the band. Those drum parts for the songs we've been talking about (Who You Are, In My Tree) are not complicated, but they illustrate Jack Irons' unique way of approaching and playing the drums. So Matt plays In My Tree the right way, but to my ears he did not capture the beautiful, swirling feel that the song had with Jack. I think that's one of the reasons it's probably been reworked.

    My favorite PJ drummer was Jack, but that was primarily because I like my drummers to be a little eccentric and unique in their approach. Matt has alot of talent in different time signatures, shifting sections, Soundgarden-esque stuff, but I think since Pearl Jam is, for the most part, a 4/4, straightforward rock band, those talents rarely get brought to the forefront. I've never been wowed by a Cameron PJ part, besides a few moments on Binaural, the way I was wowed by Jack's creativity on In My Tree, Given to Fly, In Hiding, etc. That said, Cameron's still extemely welcome; he plays the parts well, although he drives the band a bit too fast at times, and he's definetely been one of the reasons they've played so frequently since 02.
  • corduroid
    corduroid Posts: 293
    I'm in the camp that thinks Matt is by far the most advanced of three (leaving out DK and TC), but also the least inspiring. He keeps them running like a machine, no doubt, and he's extraordinary in that regard. technical chops? Galore! But I like passion, flair, unreserved at-the-edge energy and primal flows of almost sexual passion. Connection. He ain't got that.

    To me it's interesting to reflect back on the studio work:

    Dave: Vs, Vitalogy - the foundations of everything great in this band

    Jack: No Code, Yield - their most beautiful and soul-searching works, without a doubt. Studio masterpieces, rich organic feelings

    Matt: Binaural, Riot Act, 8 - 'cool', almost calculated precision; I hear "production" when I listen to these albums, a linear regression away from abstract chemistry and soul where the core thrives.

    Just my 2 cents as a long time musician and fan. Gimme Dave A on the road, Jack in the studio, and Matt to keep the shows going today :D
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Nope, sorry. Matt Cameron is not nearly as musical as Dave A was. You guys can say whatever the hell you want but it's a fact: Dave A was a better drummer than Matt Cameron.

    Actually, no, that's an opinion.
    Cameron was good in Soundgarden, he is not good in Pearl Jam. Pearl Jam is too open and loose for Cameron. When they do jams and such, he is very very uncreative and, frankly, boring. He is more oriented to very structured music, like Soundgarden. He is bad at building up and releasing tension (something that makes someone like John Bonham, and Led Zeppelin as a whole, for example, so goddamn good) and he's bad at just opening up and letting things just flow.

    Did Matt Cameron run over your dog and steal your girlfriend or something?
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    ^^ Wow that's some impressive argument there.
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Actually, no, that's an opinion.

    But it's an informed opinion.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • corduroid
    corduroid Posts: 293
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Nope, sorry. Matt Cameron is not nearly as musical as Dave A was. You guys can say whatever the hell you want but it's a fact: Dave A was a better drummer than Matt Cameron. Cameron was good in Soundgarden, he is not good in Pearl Jam. Pearl Jam is too open and loose for Cameron. When they do jams and such, he is very very uncreative and, frankly, boring. He is more oriented to very structured music, like Soundgarden. He is bad at building up and releasing tension (something that makes someone like John Bonham, and Led Zeppelin as a whole, for example, so goddamn good) and he's bad at just opening up and letting things just flow.
    ^^^ truth
  • finnannie
    finnannie Posts: 1,186
    ..... Matt rocks!!! and thats the way the cookie crumbles.. :D
    Won't let the light escape from me.
    Won't let the darkness swallow me.
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    MattyJoe wrote:
    ^^ Wow that's some impressive argument there.

    I'm not arguing with you. What would be the point? You, personally, are of the opinion that that lame-ass, high-hat riding no-talent ass-fuck Dave A. is the best PJ drummer. :)

    Seriously, though, why would I try to argue you out of a personal preference? If you told me your favorite flavor of ice cream was vanilla, I wouldn't say, "No, your favorite flavor has to be chocolate."

    I disagree wholeheartedly with you about Matt. That dude never plays the same fill twice. His drumming is interesting as hell to me. I remember recording the shows I went to on the '98 tour, Matt's first, and listening to GTF over and over and over again ... Matt's fills at the end were stunning. I remember thinking, "This is what Jack should have done with this song."

    More recently, listening to Matt at the end of, say, Save You is one of the highlights of that record to me.

    But even though I disagree wholeheartedly with you, what good would it do to argue against your preference for Dave "I love these cymbals so much I want to marry them" Abruzzesse?
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • digster
    digster Posts: 1,293
    slightofjeff wrote:

    I disagree wholeheartedly with you about Matt. That dude never plays the same fill twice. His drumming is interesting as hell to me. I remember recording the shows I went to on the '98 tour, Matt's first, and listening to GTF over and over and over again ... Matt's fills at the end were stunning. I remember thinking, "This is what Jack should have done with this song."

    quote]

    It is strange how divergent opinions could be on this topic, because I personally think Given To Fly has been one of the songs that suffered most from the transition between Jack behind the kit to Matt.

    I think that loose, rolling feeling on the toms that is such a hallmark of Jack's work is the one thing that Matt doesn't seem to have the handle on, to my ears. It's this very distinct feeling that you can hear particularly in In My Tree and Given To Fly. I think the latter song loses that unique flavor during the verses now...although that may have to do with the drastically sped up tempo which is another matter.
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    It is strange how divergent opinions could be on this topic, because I personally think Given To Fly has been one of the songs that suffered most from the transition between Jack behind the kit to Matt.

    Well, I'll admit that Matt isn't playing GTF the same way he was in '98 ... for whatever reason. I liked it better then. Still good, though.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • digster
    digster Posts: 1,293
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Well, I'll admit that Matt isn't playing GTF the same way he was in '98 ... for whatever reason. I liked it better then. Still good, though.

    Certainly. For me, though, I think the reason the 98 versions are better than the versions we've gotten more recently are that those are the Cameron versions that are closest to Jack's approach, which is what makes them the best, as opposed to the changes that Matt made to it. I think the more Matt moved away from Jack's approach, the song suffered as a result.
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    slightofjeff wrote:
    I'm not arguing with you. What would be the point? You, personally, are of the opinion that that lame-ass, high-hat riding no-talent ass-fuck Dave A. is the best PJ drummer. :)

    Seriously, though, why would I try to argue you out of a personal preference? If you told me your favorite flavor of ice cream was vanilla, I wouldn't say, "No, your favorite flavor has to be chocolate."

    I disagree wholeheartedly with you about Matt. That dude never plays the same fill twice. His drumming is interesting as hell to me. I remember recording the shows I went to on the '98 tour, Matt's first, and listening to GTF over and over and over again ... Matt's fills at the end were stunning. I remember thinking, "This is what Jack should have done with this song."

    More recently, listening to Matt at the end of, say, Save You is one of the highlights of that record to me.

    But even though I disagree wholeheartedly with you, what good would it do to argue against your preference for Dave "I love these cymbals so much I want to marry them" Abruzzesse?

    Did you listen closely to Vitalogy as I implored you to do? It's easy to see that Dave doesn't love his cymbals enough to prevent him from making some very good musical choices when the situation calls for them. His drumming is very tasteful on that album and shows how he, too, was changing, along with the band.

    And I'll point it out again; Matt Cameron is good mechanically. Good grooves, good fills, the whole deal. But he doesn't quite understand dynamics as much. He tends to play long, epic songs like Even Flow or Porch the same way all the way through. At the times when he should really be pushing the intensity of the song (like near the end) he just doesn't do it!! It frustrates the hell out of me, being a drummer. SOMETIMES he does it, but that does not excuse him for the many times he just goes through the motions and doesn't FEEL what he's playing.

    Pearl Jam has many songs that build and build and build and then EXPLODE into a climax. This concept of tension release comes from jazz, and any good rock band will have it. Stairway To Heaven is a prime example. Once Page goes electric the tension starts building and building, all the way through the guitar solo, and RELEASES in an EXPLOSION of energy at "And as we wind on down the road..." Some good bands don't have too many tension release songs, like Soundgarden. Their songs tend to stay on the same plane. The only one I can really think of that builds is Black Hole Sun. There's nothing wrong with that, Soundgarden is still a great band. But that style doesn't work for MANY of Pearl Jam's songs. Dave A was great in Pearl Jam because he knew how to build it and push it and then release it (and, yes, cymbals help..). Cameron is not oriented that way as much.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Did you listen closely to Vitalogy as I implored you to do? It's easy to see that Dave doesn't love his cymbals enough to prevent him from making some very good musical choices when the situation calls for them. His drumming is very tasteful on that album and shows how he, too, was changing, along with the band.

    And I'll point it out again; Matt Cameron is good mechanically. Good grooves, good fills, the whole deal. But he doesn't quite understand dynamics as much. He tends to play long, epic songs like Even Flow or Porch the same way all the way through. At the times when he should really be pushing the intensity of the song (like near the end) he just doesn't do it!! It frustrates the hell out of me, being a drummer. SOMETIMES he does it, but that does not excuse him for the many times he just goes through the motions and doesn't FEEL what he's playing.

    Pearl Jam has many songs that build and build and build and then EXPLODE into a climax. This concept of tension release comes from jazz, and any good rock band will have it. Stairway To Heaven is a prime example. Once Page goes electric the tension starts building and building, all the way through the guitar solo, and RELEASES in an EXPLOSION of energy at "And as we wind on down the road..." Some good bands don't have too many tension release songs, like Soundgarden. Their songs tend to stay on the same plane. The only one I can really think of that builds is Black Hole Sun. There's nothing wrong with that, Soundgarden is still a great band. But that style doesn't work for MANY of Pearl Jam's songs. Dave A was great in Pearl Jam because he knew how to build it and push it and then release it (and, yes, cymbals help..). Cameron is not oriented that way as much.

    I'm just messing with you mostly. You like Dave. I like Matt. It ain't exactly Sunni vs. Shi'ite.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    slightofjeff wrote:
    I'm just messing with you mostly. You like Dave. I like Matt. It ain't exactly Sunni vs. Shi'ite.

    Well I certainly hope we wouldn't be blowing ourselves up over this.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    digster wrote:
    Certainly. For me, though, I think the reason the 98 versions are better than the versions we've gotten more recently are that those are the Cameron versions that are closest to Jack's approach, which is what makes them the best, as opposed to the changes that Matt made to it. I think the more Matt moved away from Jack's approach, the song suffered as a result.

    I think they're just playing everything too fast. I believe that to be an ed thing more than a matt thing (at his solo show, Ed even played Around the Bend at warp speed).

    The versions of GTF that I've heard from this tour seem to be slowed down a little, thank God. Hopefully, that will help.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Well I certainly hope we wouldn't be blowing ourselves up over this.

    I'm going to send a suicide bomber to your house with a lock of Dave's hair ... when you open the door to sniff it ... KABLOOEY!
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 17,000
    Jimmy from Satan's Bed puts them all to shame.
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • Anon
    Anon Posts: 11,175
    Open wrote:
    Dead on... Technically and time wise Matt is the best drummer; if someone prefers Dave or Jack's style that is a personal preference.

    True that, it is a matter of preference.

    I think Steve Vai is one of the most "technical" guitarists in the world but he has ZERO soul when playing guitar.

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