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The Great Drummer Debate

hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
edited June 2008 in The Porch
I know the "who's the best pearl jam drummer" debate has taken place many times over the years around here, and there is no real answer, but with these recent gems being unearthed (WMA, Who You Are) I feel as though Matt might be slipping in the standings. Those two songs and In My Tree have all had to be reworked presumably to fit his drumming style. I'm not saying he isn't a great drummer but do you remember any Dave songs having to be reworked for Jack?

This is meant for discussion and not fighting. Just wondering people's thoughts on the matter now that we have another re-worked song (that sounds awesome from the short video clip on Spin). And yes there is a strong chance someone else wanted to rework the songs but considering they are all somewhat unique drum songs, Matt is my assumption. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • MattyJoeMattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    You guys don't seem to understand that as a drummer Cameron can easily learn those songs the way they are meant to be played. Whether or not he does is another thing. But even if he never plays that way, a drummer can learn those patterns. It doesn't even take that much time (a few days at most for something really hard) until you have mastered something. Take my word for it, I'm a drummer. The only thing is it's possible he just didn't take the time to work out the stuff, which has been the case before on other songs.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
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  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    I think Jack was their best drummer. His style can be either funky or hard depending on the song. Some of the shows from 95/96, when you listen to them, the drumming is out of this world. I believe he also had some things to due with the band staying together during the harder times....so he gets my nod.

    I like Matt but I think he's too "heavy" for some of PJ's stuff. I think of him in the likeness of Bonham. I liked Dave and think he was a good drummer but he had WAY too many cymbals :-) Dave K and Matt C filled in capably where needed (Dave gets a nice nod for being on 10).

    My rankings:

    Jack
    Dave
    Matt
    Dave K
    Matt C

    My .02
  • Slip KidSlip Kid Posts: 1,175
    yeah Jack Irons was the best drummer
    I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
  • hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
    I agree with both of you. I love Jack but Dave is a close second. I think Matt is technically awesome but when you listen to bootlegs of him compared to the other guys, I don't think his sound is nearly as good. It doesn't have as much "umph" if that makes sense.
  • MattyJoeMattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    Dave A was the best drummer. He really gave the band a nice energetic but grungy sound. Jack Irons is too sluggish, don't like him.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • RiotAct10RiotAct10 Ohio Posts: 1,632
    I dont think Matt is the reason a lot of these songs have been reworked. I think In My Tree had a lot to do with Ed, and I wouldn't be surprised if the other songs did to. Matt seems like the kind of guy who has no problem doing whatever the band wants him to, and I am sure if they asked him to play Who You Are or WMA like Jack or Dave, he could have done it, but I think the band, or Ed, didn't play these songs for a long time for more reason than just the drumming, and when they finally brought them back, they just decided to take a different approach.

    I know a lot of people love Jack and Dave, and I do to, but to me the current lineup is the true pearl jam lineup, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
    words seem so out of place.

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  • UpSideDownUpSideDown Posts: 1,966
    Matt wins again; Jack wasn't as strong of a live performer and Dave was only a good drummer for hard songs. He wouldnt have matured with the band.
  • hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
    Corey Erven wrote:
    Matt wins again; Jack wasn't as strong of a live performer and Dave was only a good drummer for hard songs. He wouldnt have matured with the band.

    That is a good point. Dave primarily drummed on harder songs. That is a big reason I liked his sound so much. He might not have worked with some of the post Vitalogy stuff.
  • UpSideDownUpSideDown Posts: 1,966
    hopethatuchoke wrote:
    That is a good point. Dave primarily drummed on harder songs. That is a big reason I liked his sound so much. He might not have worked with some of the post Vitalogy stuff.

    exactly.......he was good for the early stuff, but i can't see him doing well on much past that. I like Jack as well (he had a nice creative vibe) but I think Matt is just a stronger live performer.
  • Kilgore_TroutKilgore_Trout Posts: 7,334
    hopethatuchoke wrote:
    do you remember any Dave songs having to be reworked for Jack?
    thats cause Dave was a heavy hitting gorilla... not much to his drumming rythmically... not to say he wasnt a good fit for that stage of PJ's career... he just cant shine a light to jack OR matt... havent heard the new versions of the songs yet though so ill get back to you when i have
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  • 12345AGNST112345AGNST1 Posts: 4,906
    dave a had absolutely no style whatsoever. He played every song the exact same way. It didnt matter if it were soft or heavy, all he did was hit a shitload of cymbals. His drum fills were so generic. Matt cameron rapes dave a. Matt plays a different fill all the time and never plays a song the same way.

    people complain yada yada yada, matt cant play in my tree, who you are and now WMA the sam way. are you kidding me? of COURSE he can play those songs the same way. He just CHOSES not to, its called having your own style. Matt couldve easily just learned the pattern for those songs, but instead he played it his own way. Thats a real drummer. and if anyone doubts themselves on matts ability in PJ, listen to any boot from 2000, i mean reallllly listen to his playing. its incredible. I will admit he has toned down since then though.
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  • hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
    12345AGNST1 wrote:
    people complain yada yada yada, matt cant play in my tree, who you are and now WMA the sam way. are you kidding me? of COURSE he can play those songs the same way. He just CHOSES not to, its called having your own style. Matt couldve easily just learned the pattern for those songs, but instead he played it his own way. Thats a real drummer. and if anyone doubts themselves on matts ability in PJ, listen to any boot from 2000, i mean reallllly listen to his playing. its incredible. I will admit he has toned down since then though.

    So you have talked to him and been there while they are rehearsing and know for a fact he can play WMA and In My Tree the same way Dave and Jack did? If it's simply a case of having his own style then why aren't more songs changed up? It just find it peculiar that the only songs they rearrange are those with complex drum parts.
  • slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    Corey Erven wrote:
    Matt wins again; Jack wasn't as strong of a live performer and Dave was only a good drummer for hard songs. He wouldnt have matured with the band.

    I mean, could you imagine Dave drumming on something like, say, Sleight of Hand?
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  • slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    hopethatuchoke wrote:
    So you have talked to him and been there while they are rehearsing and know for a fact he can play WMA and In My Tree the same way Dave and Jack did?

    I just don't see any reason why Matt couldn't play those songs that way if he so chose. It's not like Jack invented some new sound never heard before for Who You Are.

    Any professional, half-competent drummer could learn the pattern if given time. There has to be another reason they were re-worked.

    I don't mean to denigrate Jack. Who You Are is very cool and very creative. But once something like that is created, anybody with a modicum of talent can copy it if they want to.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • Evolution6579Evolution6579 Posts: 624
    hopethatuchoke wrote:
    So you have talked to him and been there while they are rehearsing and know for a fact he can play WMA and In My Tree the same way Dave and Jack did? If it's simply a case of having his own style then why aren't more songs changed up? It just find it peculiar that the only songs they rearrange are those with complex drum parts.
    Have you heard Jesus Christ Pose, Rhinosaur, Burden In My Hand? Hell...the drum part in Evacuation is more complex than Who You Are.
    Chicago 8-23-09

  • 12345AGNST112345AGNST1 Posts: 4,906
    hopethatuchoke wrote:
    So you have talked to him and been there while they are rehearsing and know for a fact he can play WMA and In My Tree the same way Dave and Jack did? If it's simply a case of having his own style then why aren't more songs changed up? It just find it peculiar that the only songs they rearrange are those with complex drum parts.


    Go on youtube and watch random teenagers play rush songs, or really hard tool songs. Ive seen kids not even in their twenties play some real hard songs, do u seriously for one second think matt cant play a song like wma? it really ISNT a hard song, neither is who you are. the only song thats tricky is in my tree. Matt has been a drummer for what? almost 30 years?

    Matt plays his own way. its pretty obvious.
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  • LONGRDLONGRD Posts: 6,036
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Dave A was the best drummer. He really gave the band a nice energetic but grungy sound. Jack Irons is too sluggish, don't like him.
    That's why he got fired. PJ isn't a grunge anymore after '93. ;)

    Jack's my favorite, Matt, then Dave K. I usually exclude Krusen and Chamberlain from the discuss b/c their time were brief.
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  • Evolution6579Evolution6579 Posts: 624
    12345AGNST1 wrote:
    Go on youtube and watch random teenagers play rush songs, or really hard tool songs. Ive seen kids not even in their twenties play some real hard songs, do u seriously for one second think matt cant play a song like wma? it really ISNT a hard song, neither is who you are. the only song thats tricky is in my tree. Matt has been a drummer for what? almost 30 years?

    Matt plays his own way. its pretty obvious.
    Exactly. And Matt played the hell out of it on the 2000 tour. I hate having to repeat this: Put in Touring Band 2000 and watch the Matt Cam version of In My Tree. He puts so much emotion into that performance, it gives me chills. Dare I say he played it better than Jack could ever dream?

    I may be stirring the pot a little but Matt has WAY better chops than Jack.
    Chicago 8-23-09

  • Brisk.Brisk. Posts: 11,561
    matt or dave.

    /END.
  • Mr ZelxMr Zelx Posts: 18
    Check out Pearl Jam's Gimli 1993 show on youtube and you will see how good Dave A is. He is an amazing drummer and when Jack replaced him, I was shocked at how bad he was.

    Jack Irons is by far the worst drummer Pearl Jam have had. I cant believe some people on here claim he is their favourite. Each to their own I guess. Thank god Matt took over and rejuvenated the band and gave them stability.
  • Evacuation RulesEvacuation Rules Posts: 2,162
    Matt is an absolute GOD to me, but Jack had a unique style that I really love. The way he rides the hi-hat, pushes and pulls, is very unique. You hear him, and you KNOW that it's him playing, and I can't say the same for Matt.

    Dave A was too rat-a-tat-tatty and played the cymbals way too much, as tons of other people have mentioned before. HOWEVER, he had a really great SOUND, which is why I think some people prefer him. Matt's drums sound kind of flat and plain, especially on the 03/06 boots.

    And yes, I'm a drummer too, so I'm not completely talking out of my ass.
  • CitizenRickCitizenRick Posts: 1,079
    I'll make this short and sweet. I think Dave was very good at hard hitting straight ahead rock songs (Even Flow, Go ect) and not bad at all at creative stuff (WMA ect).

    Jack was awesome at creative stuff (most of No Code and Yield) very good at punk type songs (Brain of J, Lukin ect) and lacking stighlty on the rock anthem stuff (too garbage can sounding).

    Matt is the most well rounded. He plays it all with the most consistency.

    I'll take Matt!
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  • loveboat captainloveboat captain Posts: 125
    Really, how lucky are Eddie, Stone, Mike, and Jeff to have had three really strong drummers in their band with them? They're each really strong in their own ways; I admire Dave A's intensity and edge, I respect Jack's creativity and musicianship, and Matt is just the consummate professional. I think if I had to make a choice between the three, I'd take Matt for his consistency. I'd also like to echo an earlier post that pointed out Matt's performance of In My Tree from Touring Band 2K...it's flawless. So all the people that are complaining that "the band had to rework their songs because he can't handle them" need to go back and watch that performance.
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  • patrickredeyespatrickredeyes Posts: 8,834
    Matt all the way.

    I just find when he waves to the crowd after a show to be just silly looking. lol :D
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    MattyJoe wrote:
    You guys don't seem to understand that as a drummer Cameron can easily learn those songs the way they are meant to be played. Whether or not he does is another thing. But even if he never plays that way, a drummer can learn those patterns. It doesn't even take that much time (a few days at most for something really hard) until you have mastered something. Take my word for it, I'm a drummer. The only thing is it's possible he just didn't take the time to work out the stuff, which has been the case before on other songs.

    Dead on... Technically and time wise Matt is the best drummer; if someone prefers Dave or Jack's style that is a personal preference.
  • MattyJoeMattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    The thing I don't like about Cameron is he plays a little too mechanically at times. For instance in Even Flow he should be shredding on the outro (you know, the part where Stone plays the riff and Mike does those licks with wah-wah). But most of the time he'll play that just like the rest of the song. He does this in other songs as well (Porch is another example). During a part where he should really push the intensity level, he kinda just pounds out the same stuff at the same level. He never pushes it higher. Meanwhile the rest of the band are playing their asses off during the last chorus of Porch while he drums like a robot. Inexcusable.

    That's the thing I like about Dave A, he DID bring it to the next level. He knew when to up the intensity. he had good instinct for it.

    And trust me, I know what I am talking about, I am a drummer. And not a crappy one either. ;)
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    MattyJoe wrote:
    The thing I don't like about Cameron is he plays a little too mechanically at times. For instance in Even Flow he should be shredding on the outro (you know, the part where Stone plays the riff and Mike does those licks with wah-wah). But most of the time he'll play that just like the rest of the song. He does this in other songs as well (Porch is another example). During a part where he should really push the intensity level, he kinda just pounds out the same stuff at the same level. He never pushes it higher. Meanwhile the rest of the band are playing their asses off during the last chorus of Porch while he drums like a robot. Inexcusable.

    That's the thing I like about Dave A, he DID bring it to the next level. He knew when to up the intensity. he had good instinct for it.

    And trust me, I know what I am talking about, I am a drummer. And not a crappy one either. ;)

    Not disagreeing with you, a good example of him pushing it is SOLAT from 06 Gorge..you can tell he was into it.
  • 1stmammaltowearpants1stmammaltowearpants Posts: 26
    gotta go with matt on this one. the mans got talent and plays with energy. my opinion is a bit tainted though considering i'm a huge soundgarden fan
  • VEDHEAD27VEDHEAD27 Posts: 3,091
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Dave A was the best drummer. He really gave the band a nice energetic but grungy sound.

    Nicely said. :D Dave A will ALWAYS hold a very special place in my heart for a countless number of reasons. He was a beast behind that kit. An energy like no other!

    With that said... I LOVE Matt's new take on Who You Are! Hooooly fuckin hell! :eek: Loooove it! Totally made it his own. The song has been reborn. I dont think it's ever sounded better. I know I'm not the only one. :p

    WMA, I think it sounds absolutely killer as well. I'd be lying if I said I didnt miss that sick ass drum intro...but again..I like how the song has been reborn and has a different style to it.

    I love how PJ mixes it up and gives us multiple versions of songs. I also love how they've mixed it up with drummers. Each has a unique style all their own and brings something to the table that the others don't. Thats how I see it anyways. I love the variety on all levels.
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  • MattyJoeMattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    1stmammaltowearpants wrote:
    gotta go with matt on this one. the mans got talent and plays with energy. my opinion is a bit tainted though considering i'm a huge soundgarden fan

    I think he was better in Soundgarden than in Pearl Jam. He fit in better.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
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