Turntables

dankind said:

brianlux said:

BB162610 said:

brianlux said:

After a TON of research, I finally decided to go with the Technics SL-1500C and made the call. 

"Sorry, out of stock."

And another call.

"Sorry, back-ordered."

And another call.

"Sorry, no gots."

Sheesh!

When I was ordering gear from my dealer recently, they mentioned how hard Technics has been hit due to the pandemic and it’s very difficult to get their products right now. 

Yeah, I talk to a couple of reps from three different companies and they're all saying Technics probably won't be shipping until summer or maybe even early fall.  One guy said that electronics in general have been hard hot due to pandemic factors.

dankind said:

Hey, @brianlux , it's me, your Thorens pusher again.

How you doing, buddy? Jonesin' for a noiseless motor and an incredible soundstage? 

I know how it is, pal. I've been there. But not anymore. Because I found Thorens.

You want user friendly. As long as you use, Thorens will be friendly.

Good to know.  I talked to a tech from Music Direct yesterday and explained what was going on with my Pro-ject Carbon Debut.  Once I removed the shipping screws, the thumping motor noise stopped.  I sometimes can feel a fine vibration in the tone arm but the tech told me that was not going to hurt anything.  He said the carbon fiber arm is light and thus transmits some of the energy and that I should just use the cuing lever and not worry about it.

With that in mind, I figure it buys me time to look at both the Thorens and the Technics.  Both of them will have a big advantage over the Carbon Debut:  No more lifting the platter to change speeds.  What I don't know is weather I would like the Thorens' Audio Technica AT VM95E cartidge (which I haven't heard) over the Ortofon 2M Red (which is what I have on the Carbon Debut) or the Red upgrade, Ortofon 2M Blue (which I also have not heard).

So many choices to make!  But now,at least, I feel like I have time to do more research. 

I have read that the Ortofon Blue (so an upgrade, greedy bastiges!) pairs well with the the two Thorens models listed above. I have no experience with Ortofon cartridges myself (my Thorens came with a Grado on it, which I enjoy). I do have experience with that AT cartridge, though, since that was stocked with my AT table when I bought it new. That cartridge is a great listening cartridge that sounds nice almost right out of the box, but I will say that I have two other tables in the rotation that handle hot spots and the occasional warp a lot better than the AT. I don't know whether to blame that on the cartridge or the featherlight tonearm, though. Might even be the doofus who set it up.

mickeyrat said:

its not an irreversable decision Brian....

either table or cartridge

For $1200 I'd want my balls blown off. Return it, I say. Perhaps a less expensive TT with an upgraded cartridge.

brianlux said:

After literally years of researching and stewing over what to upgrade my Project Carbon debut with red Ortofon cartridge, I got this email from Crutchfield saying that they had a small, limited number of Technics SL-1500C turntables with Red Ortofon cart come in, was I interested?  So I jumped on it.  Got it set up today and was kind of bummed to find that the only auditory difference to me was that the Technics seems just a tiny fraction less forward sounding and on some of the highs seem more bright (not a welcome feature for my trashed ears).  Otherwise, they seem fairly similar to me.

Sheesh, $1200 bucks for that? 

I had my wife sit down and do a listening test and she kindly obliged. I am more pitch sensitive from having hyperacusis, so it seemed like a good idea to try a side-by-side test on someone with good hearing.  I asked her to not change position while listening. I asked her to listen for things like dynamics, loudness, pitch, clarity, and presence.

First,  I played a more punchy rock tune on the Technics, The Dream Syndicate's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean", then switched the jacks and played the same tune on the Project.  Next, I played Neil Young's folkier "Tell Me Why" on the Technics, switched out again, and played the same tune on the Project.    At the end, I asked her to compare the two turntables.  She looked at me and said, "Honestly, I can't tell the difference."

Life is funny, haha!

So now I have to decide whether to keep the Techincs as a second TT/ back up to the aging Project or return it before the 60 days are up.  One consideration is break-in time.  I'm told red Ortofon's mellow after some break-in time.  I had the thing for 26 days before setting up due to being laid low by Moderna.  So I don't really have much break-in time and I don't really know if it will mellow.  I never really noticed the brightness on the Project's red Ortofon.

Damn first-world problems!     (But in fairness to myself, $1200 is a fairly big pile of money in my world.  It was about three years of saving up much of my own spending money.)

Man, that's a drag! It echoes my own experience with turntables though. As long as a turntable keeps speed consistently, I have never noticed much difference between them regarding sound quality. You need very sensitive and revealing speakers to appreciate the difference between some components. 

Cartridges are a different story. A good cartridge, even on a stable but moderately priced turntable can sound incredibly good. You would have to spend a lot of money to notice a considerable improvement.

IME, if you're unhappy with your stereo, you would be better served by upgrading your speakers, as they contribute the most to the overall experience. Preamp electronics, power amp, source and cables come later and almost always yield more subtle improvements. 

YMMV, of course. 

brianlux said:

dudeman said:

brianlux said:

After literally years of researching and stewing over what to upgrade my Project Carbon debut with red Ortofon cartridge, I got this email from Crutchfield saying that they had a small, limited number of Technics SL-1500C turntables with Red Ortofon cart come in, was I interested?  So I jumped on it.  Got it set up today and was kind of bummed to find that the only auditory difference to me was that the Technics seems just a tiny fraction less forward sounding and on some of the highs seem more bright (not a welcome feature for my trashed ears).  Otherwise, they seem fairly similar to me.

Sheesh, $1200 bucks for that? 

I had my wife sit down and do a listening test and she kindly obliged. I am more pitch sensitive from having hyperacusis, so it seemed like a good idea to try a side-by-side test on someone with good hearing.  I asked her to not change position while listening. I asked her to listen for things like dynamics, loudness, pitch, clarity, and presence.

First,  I played a more punchy rock tune on the Technics, The Dream Syndicate's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean", then switched the jacks and played the same tune on the Project.  Next, I played Neil Young's folkier "Tell Me Why" on the Technics, switched out again, and played the same tune on the Project.    At the end, I asked her to compare the two turntables.  She looked at me and said, "Honestly, I can't tell the difference."

Life is funny, haha!

So now I have to decide whether to keep the Techincs as a second TT/ back up to the aging Project or return it before the 60 days are up.  One consideration is break-in time.  I'm told red Ortofon's mellow after some break-in time.  I had the thing for 26 days before setting up due to being laid low by Moderna.  So I don't really have much break-in time and I don't really know if it will mellow.  I never really noticed the brightness on the Project's red Ortofon.

Damn first-world problems!     (But in fairness to myself, $1200 is a fairly big pile of money in my world.  It was about three years of saving up much of my own spending money.)

Man, that's a drag! It echoes my own experience with turntables though. As long as a turntable keeps speed consistently, I have never noticed much difference between them regarding sound quality. You need very sensitive and revealing speakers to appreciate the difference between some components. 

Cartridges are a different story. A good cartridge, even on a stable but moderately priced turntable can sound incredibly good. You would have to spend a lot of money to notice a considerable improvement.

IME, if you're unhappy with your stereo, you would be better served by upgrading your speakers, as they contribute the most to the overall experience. Preamp electronics, power amp, source and cables come later and almost always yield more subtle improvements. 

YMMV, of course. 

Good advice all around, Dudeman, thanks!

I got return authorization today from Crutchfield and they made it very easy and pleasant.  They're a great company to work with and the return was way more affordable than I'd expected!

I think you would have to spend a fair amount to best that Debut that you have.  It's a very good 'entry' TT and performs like one in the 1000-1500 range without question.  So returning it would be the way to go.  I didn't read all of this, but I think you might hear a difference by upgrading the cart to a blue.  But overall, I think Dudeman is right..  speakers are where it's at at the end of the day.  If you have low end speakers, upgrading those will be, by far, your best bang for the buck.  And buying used speakers is a great idea.  Unless they are 30 years old or abused, they don't wear down.  You can pay 30-50% of new retail and have amazing speakers. 

Got a nice deal on a VPI Cliffwood, loads better than my Project Debut 2.

Many turntables do not have covers these days and they charge a flippin arm and leg for them.  Had a custom one made for it.  Somethign to consider when buying. The project debut 2 had a cover

Uturn