Police abuse

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  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,359
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    tbergs said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
    The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.
    I see 3 scenarios.
    1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
    2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
    3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

    There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 
    That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

    But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

    I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

    That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

    So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

    Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

    Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

    This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

    If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

    Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

    Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 
    I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
    But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
    My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
    Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 
    I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 
    if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 
    Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.
    haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 
    This was like a movie though.  They set up intelligence and think that drugs and cash are in the apartment so they set up for the no knock warrant. 

    They go in shots fired, return fire, one person dead 2 injured.  They search the place and no guns and no cash.

    Either someone knew they were coming or it was a really, really piss poor investigation.

    No stake out?  Watch the place to see if the person they are after even shows up there?

    Horrible job by whom ever set this up but the cops don't appear to have been in the wrong given what they had to work with.
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,825
    tempo_n_groove said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    tbergs said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
    The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.
    I see 3 scenarios.
    1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
    2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
    3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

    There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 
    That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

    But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

    I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

    That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

    So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

    Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

    Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

    This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

    If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

    Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

    Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 
    I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
    But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
    My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
    Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 
    I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 
    if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 
    Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.
    haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 
    This was like a movie though.  They set up intelligence and think that drugs and cash are in the apartment so they set up for the no knock warrant. 

    They go in shots fired, return fire, one person dead 2 injured.  They search the place and no guns and no cash.

    Either someone knew they were coming or it was a really, really piss poor investigation.

    No stake out?  Watch the place to see if the person they are after even shows up there?

    Horrible job by whom ever set this up but the cops don't appear to have been in the wrong given what they had to work with.
    My understanding was the whole wrong address or the person they were after wasn't there is another one of those false facts spreading. They weren't looking for her ex boyfriend, they had another raid at the same time where they believed he was and I think they did get him at that time. But they thought Breonna was possibly holding drugs for her ex, as he was reported to still be in contact with her and I think believed to have received a package there.
    I've had packages delivered to old addressed by mistake before. SO if that was what they were going on, yes it was a poor investigation.
    I don't think that is enough to warrant this kind of raid the way it went down, but I'm not sure what a stakeout would have accomplished. 
    But bottom line, I agree with your last sentence. Bad investigation and set up, but what exactly did the cops who executed the warrant do wrong? Other than the third guy shooting from outside, nothing that rises to a criminal level. 
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    mace1229 said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    tbergs said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
    The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.
    I see 3 scenarios.
    1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
    2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
    3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

    There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 
    That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

    But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

    I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

    That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

    So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

    Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

    Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

    This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

    If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

    Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

    Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 
    I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
    But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
    My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
    Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 
    I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 
    if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 
    Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.
    haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 
    This was like a movie though.  They set up intelligence and think that drugs and cash are in the apartment so they set up for the no knock warrant. 

    They go in shots fired, return fire, one person dead 2 injured.  They search the place and no guns and no cash.

    Either someone knew they were coming or it was a really, really piss poor investigation.

    No stake out?  Watch the place to see if the person they are after even shows up there?

    Horrible job by whom ever set this up but the cops don't appear to have been in the wrong given what they had to work with.
    My understanding was the whole wrong address or the person they were after wasn't there is another one of those false facts spreading. They weren't looking for her ex boyfriend, they had another raid at the same time where they believed he was and I think they did get him at that time. But they thought Breonna was possibly holding drugs for her ex, as he was reported to still be in contact with her and I think believed to have received a package there.
    I've had packages delivered to old addressed by mistake before. SO if that was what they were going on, yes it was a poor investigation.
    I don't think that is enough to warrant this kind of raid the way it went down, but I'm not sure what a stakeout would have accomplished. 
    But bottom line, I agree with your last sentence. Bad investigation and set up, but what exactly did the cops who executed the warrant do wrong? Other than the third guy shooting from outside, nothing that rises to a criminal level. 
    he picked up a shoebox that the cops said they thought was drugs. the family says it was in fact shoes. 
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,610
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mace1229 said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    tbergs said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
    The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.
    I see 3 scenarios.
    1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
    2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
    3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

    There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 
    That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

    But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

    I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

    That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

    So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

    Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

    Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

    This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

    If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

    Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

    Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 
    I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
    But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
    My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
    Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 
    I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 
    if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 
    Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.
    haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 
    This was like a movie though.  They set up intelligence and think that drugs and cash are in the apartment so they set up for the no knock warrant. 

    They go in shots fired, return fire, one person dead 2 injured.  They search the place and no guns and no cash.

    Either someone knew they were coming or it was a really, really piss poor investigation.

    No stake out?  Watch the place to see if the person they are after even shows up there?

    Horrible job by whom ever set this up but the cops don't appear to have been in the wrong given what they had to work with.
    My understanding was the whole wrong address or the person they were after wasn't there is another one of those false facts spreading. They weren't looking for her ex boyfriend, they had another raid at the same time where they believed he was and I think they did get him at that time. But they thought Breonna was possibly holding drugs for her ex, as he was reported to still be in contact with her and I think believed to have received a package there.
    I've had packages delivered to old addressed by mistake before. SO if that was what they were going on, yes it was a poor investigation.
    I don't think that is enough to warrant this kind of raid the way it went down, but I'm not sure what a stakeout would have accomplished. 
    But bottom line, I agree with your last sentence. Bad investigation and set up, but what exactly did the cops who executed the warrant do wrong? Other than the third guy shooting from outside, nothing that rises to a criminal level. 
    he picked up a shoebox that the cops said they thought was drugs. the family says it was in fact shoes. 
    Who the hell keeps shoes in a shoebox?

    Again, all this shit over DRUGS!?  Why, in a state/country with stand your ground laws and nearly universal gun ownership are cops busing into places over fucking drugs?  No-knock warrants strike me as something that should occur under very rare circumstances.  "Drugs and cash might be in the house" ain't one of 'em.

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  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    OnWis97 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mace1229 said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    tbergs said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    Parksy said:
    mace1229 said:
    What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
    The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.
    I see 3 scenarios.
    1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
    2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
    3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

    There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 
    That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

    But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

    I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

    That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

    So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

    Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

    Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

    This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

    If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

    Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

    Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 
    I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
    But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
    My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
    Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 
    I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 
    if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 
    Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.
    haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 
    This was like a movie though.  They set up intelligence and think that drugs and cash are in the apartment so they set up for the no knock warrant. 

    They go in shots fired, return fire, one person dead 2 injured.  They search the place and no guns and no cash.

    Either someone knew they were coming or it was a really, really piss poor investigation.

    No stake out?  Watch the place to see if the person they are after even shows up there?

    Horrible job by whom ever set this up but the cops don't appear to have been in the wrong given what they had to work with.
    My understanding was the whole wrong address or the person they were after wasn't there is another one of those false facts spreading. They weren't looking for her ex boyfriend, they had another raid at the same time where they believed he was and I think they did get him at that time. But they thought Breonna was possibly holding drugs for her ex, as he was reported to still be in contact with her and I think believed to have received a package there.
    I've had packages delivered to old addressed by mistake before. SO if that was what they were going on, yes it was a poor investigation.
    I don't think that is enough to warrant this kind of raid the way it went down, but I'm not sure what a stakeout would have accomplished. 
    But bottom line, I agree with your last sentence. Bad investigation and set up, but what exactly did the cops who executed the warrant do wrong? Other than the third guy shooting from outside, nothing that rises to a criminal level. 
    he picked up a shoebox that the cops said they thought was drugs. the family says it was in fact shoes. 
    Who the hell keeps shoes in a shoebox?

    Again, all this shit over DRUGS!?  Why, in a state/country with stand your ground laws and nearly universal gun ownership are cops busing into places over fucking drugs?  No-knock warrants strike me as something that should occur under very rare circumstances.  "Drugs and cash might be in the house" ain't one of 'em.

    that's what i read. not sure the veracity. 
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,825
    The guy who shot the 2 cops in Louisville is getting charged with assault and wanton endangerment, not attempted murder. 
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,574
    Nothing changes for the minority communities cops are not trusted at all! Cops have proven over & over again that they handle white folks different than when they approach black folks!
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,401
    mace1229 said:
    The guy who shot the 2 cops in Louisville is getting charged with assault and wanton endangerment, not attempted murder. 
    Seems just as nonsensical as the Taylor charges. Way to go Kentucky.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,104
    Yup, all on the up and up. Wonder what the DA told the grand jury regarding ballistics evidence? I’m sure it was the same as the state police report.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/breonna-taylor-shooting-body-camera-video-police-policy-violation/
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,072
    The police.  They just can’t stop killing unarmed Black Men....  JFC https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas-rangers-investigating-police-shooting-in-wolfe-city-officer-placed-on-leave/287-abe92429-3282-43b2-8d30-cfd32d8976ca
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,104
    How long before these three beat or shoot someone to death or turn into serial killers?


    https://www.boston.com/news/animals/2020/10/06/maine-police-accused-of-beating-porcupines-to-death-with-batons
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,401
    We'll see how the public reacts to this today.

    https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/10/07/former-mpd-officer-derek-chauvin-charged-in-george-floyds-death-expected-to-post-bail-source-says/
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • cutz
    cutz Posts: 12,234

  • 23scidoo
    23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 19,956

    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
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  • cutz
    cutz Posts: 12,234
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/10/15/splc-releases-audio-how-neo-nazi-group-recruits-military-police/3661460001/

    Secret audio recordings detail how white supremacists seek recruits from military, police

    Members of the public can report suspected terrorists to the FBI at tips.fbi.gov or 1-800-CALLFBI (225-5324).

    Kim Hjelmgaard
    USA TODAY

    An organization that fights for racial and social justice published secret audio recordings Thursday that uncover aspects of how one American white supremacist group seeks to recruit from the U.S. military and law enforcement and encourages its members to hatch violent plots and undertake paramilitary training to start a race war. 

    The Southern Poverty Law Center's (SPLC) recordings, published as part of a podcast series called "Sounds Like Hate," provide insight into the recruiting tactics and terrorism ambitions of a neo-Nazi white supremacist group called The Base, whose American-born-and-raised leader Rinaldo Nazzaro is believed to be living in Russia. 

    "We want things to accelerate, we want things to get worse in the United States," Nazzaro says in the recordings, as he interviews a potential new recruit. 


    "Our mission's very, very simple. It is training and networking, preparing for collapse. We want to be in a position where we’re ready, we're prepared enough, ready enough that we can take advantage of whatever chaos, power vacuum, that might emerge. We want to try and fill that power vacuum and take advantage of the chaos."

    Rinaldo Nazzaro
    The law center's three-part podcast – parts two and three publish later this month – takes listeners through 83 hours of secret recordings as 100 men apply for membership. The recordings were made on an encrypted app called "Wire" by a Canadian journalist who infiltrated the group and via a separate confidential source who provided the recordings unsolicited. The authenticity of the recordings was verified by subject matter experts who recognized Nazzaro’s voice from previous audio appearances and were able to verify other corroborating details. 


    Much of the conversation makes for disturbing listening and includes racial slurs, offensive language and discussions about how to precipitate the collapse of American civilization and engineer their fantasies of a white ethnostate.

    USA TODAY could not independently verify the identities of those featured on the podcast.

    Nazzaro repeatedly makes clear in the recordings that he favors recruiting members who have either served in the police or the military because of their experience with guns and/or combat expertise. Several of the candidates Nazzaro interviews claim to have such backgrounds, including some who claim to be on active military duty, although the SPLC acknowledges that some of the statements made by candidates to Nazzaro may be exaggerated to win his approval. An estimated 20% of potential recruits claimed to be connected to the military in some capacity. 

    "​Right. But I mean, you know, even when you do deploy, I'm assuming that you'll still be able to maintain contact with us," Nazzaro says to one candidate being interviewed, who claims to be responsible for operating weapons on tanks in the U.S. military. 

    Also discussed: bombings, arson and economic sabotage.

    Right-wing extremists responsible for 90% of U.S. terrorist attacks in 2020
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    The U.S. Marine Corps. has confirmed that two of the 13 men charged by federal and state authorities in an alleged domestic terrorism plot to kidnap Michigan Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer were Marine veterans. Some of the men are accused of scheming to storm the State Capitol building, take Whitmer and other government officials hostage and start a civil war over their anti-government views and grievances ranging from poor economic prospects to anger over coronavirus restrictions.   

    FBI:Virginia Gov. Northam was also targeted in plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer

    The alleged Michigan plot has renewed attention on warnings from security experts, U.S. lawmakers and extremism researchers about the growing threat of domestic terrorism from far-right groups, many of them with links to white supremacy extremists. 


    "Today, white supremacist terrorism is responsible for more deaths on U.S. soil than jihadist terrorism since 9/11," the Soufan Center, a New York-based global security think tank, noted in a recent report.

    In May last year, Assistant Director for Counterterrorism Michael McGarrity testified before Congress that of the FBI's 850 open domestic terrorism cases a "significant majority" were related to white supremacist extremists.

    And according to a report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank, right-wing extremists were responsible for more than 76% of terrorist attacks and plots in the U.S. in 2019; 90% in the first half of 2020. 

    The Soufan Center says many of these extremists maintain strong transnational links to like-minded organizations and individuals all over the world from Australia to South Africa. But Russia and Ukraine, in particular, have emerged as a "hub in the broader network" where the leaders of American white extremist groups have traveled to learn recruitment, financing and propaganda techniques that in many cases imitate the "tactics, techniques and procedures of groups like al-Qaeda and the Islamic State."


    In 2018, several members of the Southern California-based Rise Above Movement (RAM) traveled to Germany, Italy and Ukraine to meet with members of white supremacy groups, according to an affidavit and criminal complaint against Robert Paul Rundo – RAM's founder – and three other members of the group unsealed by the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California. 

    The complaint charged Rundo and his associates with inciting and conspiring to commit violence in connection with several rallies, including the August 2017 rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, that led to the death of protester Heather Heyer. Three RAM members were later given prison sentences for their part in conspiracies to riot at the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville, and other alleged political rallies in California.


    Hate crimes:Avowed neo-Nazi James Fields sentenced to life in prison

    Former Vice President Joe Biden said in late April last year that he decided in part to declare his candidacy for the Democratic nomination and presidency after hearing President Donald Trump say of the rally in Charlottesville that there were "very fine people on both sides." Trump later said he was quoted out of context. However, far-right groups such as the all-male Proud Boys have expressed admiration for Trump and the president has appeared inconsistent in condemning right-wing extremist organizations. 

    These countries quietly slid into authoritarianism: Should the US be concerned?

    The SPLC and reporting from news outlets such as ProPublica and Britain's The Guardian have established that Nazzaro is 47-years-old, attended Villanova University and owns land in a remote corner of Washington state. He says he served in the U.S. military in Afghanistan and claims to have worked for American intelligence agencies as a contractor. At one point, he owned a security company registered in New York City.

    Nazzaro left the U.S. in late 2017 when he moved with his Russian wife and family to St. Petersburg, Russia. The Guardian has reported that the FBI is scrutinizing any links between Russian intelligence or its proxies and Nazzaro. It is believed he is originally from New Jersey. 

    New Jersey's Office of Homeland Security and Preparedness said in a statement that The Base will in 2020 "likely attempt to recruit new members in the region, rely on members with military expertise and training, and use intimidation tactics to terrorize its victims and spread its white supremacist ideology."

    Geraldine Moriba, a producer of law center's podcast, notes in the series that The Base's members and potential recruits who feature in the recordings "claim to live in 26 different states and participate in small, two-or-three person cells in every quadrant of America. An additional eight countries were represented on these calls."

    But Cassie Miller, an SPLC analyst on extremism who is featured in the series, said that while Nazzaro appears at pains to make potential recruits believe the group is a "highly sophisticated terror network" with "strict internal discipline" and vetting methods, the opposite may be true. "They accepted almost everyone who applied," she said.

    Members of the public can report suspected terrorists to the FBI at tips.fbi.gov or 1-800-CALLFBI (225-5324).

  • 23scidoo
    23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 19,956
    ''Announcement by the Municipality of Chalandri on the arrest of a high school student in our city On Thursday 15/10, during the student rally, Vangelis, a student of the 7th High School of Halandri and an elected secretary of his school's fifteen-member council was arrested. He was there representing his school in the fair demands made by the student occupation movement to reduce the number of students per class, recruitment of the necessary number of teachers and auxiliary staff and the operation of schools with health safety. Since that day he has been detained in Security on felony charges, despite the fact that during his physical inspection twice nothing was found and at the time of his arrest he was released from a catering shop. The City Council of the city has expressed its full opposition to any attempt to slander and criminalize the student games and called on the State to review its attitude, away from unacceptable punishable logic of authoritarianism, violence and arbitrariness against minors students. On Monday 19.10, at 11 am we will be at the solidarity gathering together with Vangelis's Parents Associations and classmates in the courts of the Epidon where he is invited to apologize to the investigator for felony charges that may have a heavy impact on the later life of a minor child. We ask for his release and discharge of the charges in order to continue his life and study at his school''. https://www.chalandri.gr/uncategorized/65813/ #δημοςχαλανδριου #chalandri #μαθητες #σχολεια
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
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    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • 23scidoo
    23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 19,956
    WTFF????..No one told them you can shoot on foot or something??..
    Sorry to say that but your country is deep sick..my apologies if i offensive someone..



    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited October 2020
    23scidoo said:
    WTFF????..No one told them you can shoot on foot or something??..
    Sorry to say that but your country is deep sick..my apologies if i offensive someone..



    Truthfully, they are trained to shoot center mass and would probably be heavily reprimanded if they purposely tried to shoot him in the foot.  They are trained to shoot center mass in order to prevent stray bullets and it is the best legal option for them.  Technically and legally police are trained to “stop”, not to “kill” or maim and center mass is the biggest target.  The main question here should be whether this situation warranted any shooting at all.  That is what they will have to answer to.  Do they train to shoot in the foot in your country?
    This article says pretty much the same thing as above:
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-trained-shoot-wound-experts/story?id=40402933
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • 23scidoo
    23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 19,956
    PJPOWER said:
    23scidoo said:
    WTFF????..No one told them you can shoot on foot or something??..
    Sorry to say that but your country is deep sick..my apologies if i offensive someone..



    Truthfully, they are trained to shoot center mass and would probably be heavily reprimanded if they purposely tried to shoot him in the foot.  They are trained to shoot center mass in order to prevent stray bullets and it is the best legal option for them.  Technically and legally police are trained to “stop”, not to “kill” or maim and center mass is the biggest target.  The main question here should be whether this situation warranted any shooting at all.  That is what they will have to answer to.  Do they train to shoot in the foot in your country?
    This article says pretty much the same thing as above:
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-trained-shoot-wound-experts/story?id=40402933
    I guess they do, it's the logic thing.. but we don't have things like this here.. other brutality but very rare killings..
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • RiotZact
    RiotZact Posts: 6,292
    Yeah shit is getting real here in Philly. He was definitely coming at them with a knife, but holy hell he was so fucking far away! Did we try a taser? Anything other than deadly force at all??
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