Police abuse

tempo_n_groove

gimmesometruth27 said:

maybe we need to have a licensing system for police. health care professionals have to have a license. they can kill you if they make a mistake same as cops. maybe if we license these people, if they kill someone or abuse someone they lose their license and cannot work in law enforcement anymore.

just throwing that out there. i heard someone mention that today and thought it was a decent idea.

You'd have to prove that the cop shooting was unjustifiable which they do now so I don't know what you could do differently than take away that immunity they have.

tbergs

gimmesometruth27 said:

maybe we need to have a licensing system for police. health care professionals have to have a license. they can kill you if they make a mistake same as cops. maybe if we license these people, if they kill someone or abuse someone they lose their license and cannot work in law enforcement anymore.

just throwing that out there. i heard someone mention that today and thought it was a decent idea.

Many states do require licensure for Peace Officers and a minimum education level. I had to have a degree, specific 12 week training and pass the licensure exam along with a written and verbal psych exam before I was licensed. Then there was recertification requirements every 3 years by receiving approved training. That is not common in all states though, especially the deep red ones.

HughFreakingDillon

gimmesometruth27 said:

maybe we need to have a licensing system for police. health care professionals have to have a license. they can kill you if they make a mistake same as cops. maybe if we license these people, if they kill someone or abuse someone they lose their license and cannot work in law enforcement anymore.

just throwing that out there. i heard someone mention that today and thought it was a decent idea.

it really is. higher scrutiny, higher education, higher pay. recruit only the best and brightest. regular psych evals. stuff like that. 

HughFreakingDillon

tbergs said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

maybe we need to have a licensing system for police. health care professionals have to have a license. they can kill you if they make a mistake same as cops. maybe if we license these people, if they kill someone or abuse someone they lose their license and cannot work in law enforcement anymore.

just throwing that out there. i heard someone mention that today and thought it was a decent idea.

Many states do require licensure for Peace Officers and a minimum education level. I had to have a degree, specific 12 week training and pass the licensure exam along with a written and verbal psych exam before I was licensed. Then there was recertification requirements every 3 years by receiving approved training. That is not common in all states though, especially the deep red ones.

excellent to hear. 

tbergs

HughFreakingDillon said:

tbergs said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

maybe we need to have a licensing system for police. health care professionals have to have a license. they can kill you if they make a mistake same as cops. maybe if we license these people, if they kill someone or abuse someone they lose their license and cannot work in law enforcement anymore.

just throwing that out there. i heard someone mention that today and thought it was a decent idea.

Many states do require licensure for Peace Officers and a minimum education level. I had to have a degree, specific 12 week training and pass the licensure exam along with a written and verbal psych exam before I was licensed. Then there was recertification requirements every 3 years by receiving approved training. That is not common in all states though, especially the deep red ones.

excellent to hear. 

Unfortunately all of that didn't stop Derek Chauvin from kneeling on George Floyd's neck for 8 1/2 minutes. Fuck wads will still seep through, especially if the department doesn't reel them in early in their career. Chauvin could have easily been prevented. He was a product of a broken system in MPD.

mace1229

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

Ledbetterman10

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

That's a good idea. Really, I'd be for all departments having body cams. Why not? It would both protect cops that deserve protecting, and exposing cops that need exposing.

In this case, I feel that at some point, the cops had to announce themselves. The Kentucky DA says, per a witness, that they did announce themselves before entering. But even if that didn't happen, UPON entering, that must've announced themselves at some point. If not, then what? Did they enter and begin tip-toeing around the apartment and then when her boyfriend opened fire, they were like "Whoa! Don't shoot! We're the police!" I find it hard to believe that the boyfriend didn't know he was shooting at police. 

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

i'm convinced many people around here would respond with entirely different opinions if you couldn't see the person's user name you were responding to. 

👍 

mace1229

Ledbetterman10 said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

That's a good idea. Really, I'd be for all departments having body cams. Why not? It would both protect cops that deserve protecting, and exposing cops that need exposing.

In this case, I feel that at some point, the cops had to announce themselves. The Kentucky DA says, per a witness, that they did announce themselves before entering. But even if that didn't happen, UPON entering, that must've announced themselves at some point. If not, then what? Did they enter and begin tip-toeing around the apartment and then when her boyfriend opened fire, they were like "Whoa! Don't shoot! We're the police!" I find it hard to believe that the boyfriend didn't know he was shooting at police. 

I would assume the answer is cost. I've seen reports that body cams are as low as $100, but I think the average cost is $150-$200. Sounds cheap, but that doesn't include data storage and maintenance and other factors. Not to mention they need to be replaced every few years.  Still not terribly expensive when compared to the entire budget, but I don't think we'll see any new departments adding body cams among calls to defund the police. 

Parksy

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

mace1229

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

Halifax2TheMax

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

Let’s not dismiss the grand jury process here either. The grand jury only saw and heard one side of the story, the story the DA wanted to tell to protect the cops. As for “responsibility?” That’s like asking gun owners to be “responsible” and accountable. But freedumb.

CYA Barr and DOJ could open a civil rights investigation but that’s unlikely as they already jettisoned previous mechanisms to reform police departments and policing.

Parksy

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

tbergs

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

I think what you have stated in your last 2 posts are the real problems with the whole situation, but too many people are hung up on the fact that these cops were just doing their job so they shouldn't be charged. Well, they did a pretty shitty job and if you don't know what you're doing, then turn in your badge and gun and find a new career. These excuses are all pathetic.

The whole situation reeks of lazy policing. Any search warrant I ever executed, we had eyes on the property with eye witness or 1st hand account of the illegal activity or suspect inside and someone sat on the place until the warrant was signed and tactical, or whoever was doing the entry, arrived to execute it. The judge wouldn't sign "cold" or "stale" information warrants.

mace1229

tbergs said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

I think what you have stated in your last 2 posts are the real problems with the whole situation, but too many people are hung up on the fact that these cops were just doing their job so they shouldn't be charged. Well, they did a pretty shitty job and if you don't know what you're doing, then turn in your badge and gun and find a new career. These excuses are all pathetic.

The whole situation reeks of lazy policing. Any search warrant I ever executed, we had eyes on the property with eye witness or 1st hand account of the illegal activity or suspect inside and someone sat on the place until the warrant was signed and tactical, or whoever was doing the entry, arrived to execute it. The judge wouldn't sign "cold" or "stale" information warrants.

I haven't heard anyone say the police did a great job. There are definitely problems with the system that allowed this to happen that need to be corrected. I just don't see it rising to the level of criminal charges of manslaughter on the police who executed the warrant. 

Halifax2TheMax

Chock full of what I would consider factual reporting to give you a clearer picture of what happened and why. Depressing as hell though.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/24/correcting-misinformation-about-breonna-taylor/

HughFreakingDillon

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 

tbergs

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 

Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.

HughFreakingDillon

tbergs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 

Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.

haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

tbergs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

Parksy said:

mace1229 said:

What does everyone think was appropriate with the Breonna case?
The police entered, was shot at and one was wounded in the leg before returning fire.

I see 3 scenarios.
1- if the warrant was a no-knock warrant then the fault is in how they determine when to use that type of warrant, and no the officers on scene. Sad outcome, but no one deserves to be criminally charged.
2- if it wasn’t a no-knock warrant but they treated it as one, then the police’s improper action directly lead to her death. Maybe not murder as I don’t know if you could show any intent, but possibly manslaughter.
3- wasn’t a no-knock warrant and they followed it correctly. In this scenario the fault is on the boyfriend and he should be charged with attempted murder for the cop and with Breonna’s murder.

There still is some mixed information about the type of warrant, but it looks like it was a no-knock warrant but were given verbal directions to knock first. And if that’s the case, it’s an internal issue for not following orders, but not criminal as they were not legally obligated to. So did they knock and announce? Seems like no definitive evidence that there was no knock and no announcement. I don’t know any details about the witnesses to comment on their integrity or if they were likely to have even heard a knock. Just because they are police doesn’t mean prosecution doesn’t have burden of proof. Same goes for scenario 3, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt in either scenario. 

That why I believe the grand jury reached the correct verdict. Does anyone want these cops to spend jail time for a warrant they served as written at best, or possibly knocked and forced entered at worse? Either way I’d say no.

But it does speak about protocols from writing a warrant to serving it. I said earlier departments should require filming while serving warrants from now on. No reason to not have 1 person take out a phone and record the entry if there are no body cams.

I think that this whole scenario shows how inept some police are.  IF this investigation qualified a 'no knock' warrant, then that position  should have been taken. A no knock warrant should only be given if exigent circumstances can be determined and proven. In this case, not a chance. I've witnessed no knock warrants carried out and it's done that way because they KNOW the suspects are already armed or will possibly flee. How could they have possibly known this about Taylor and Walker?

That said... let's look at the process by which they got this warrant... which is fundamentally BULLSHIT.  You have very small 'probable' cause to believe the home was used to 'probably' deal drugs.  The intel was old, inaccurate, and the surveillance was to the best of my knowledge non-existent. 

So in this case, you have cops arriving late at night (for what reason? Again, prove exigent circumstances.) to investigate two people (who were not present).  Put yourself in Walker's shoes.  You hear a bang at the door late at night.  Whether you hear the announcement or not... who  is to say that the people are actually cops.  If you've done literally nothing wrong, then it's safe to assume they're not cops. They're probably thinking "why the fuck are the cops here?"  Which then gives you the right to defend yourself. 

Very hard to justify murder charges against the cops without premeditation or intent, but manslaughter for sure. This was gross incompetence and negligence. From what I understand, one shot came at the door and then the cops just lit up the house. Through windows, through blinds, through doors. How can a cop neutralize a threat when they cannot see the threat?  Would the narrative change if Breonna Taylor was a 4 year old white girl?  Because in this case, I don't see how the cops would have or could have known who was in that house and that is THEIR FAULT. 

Call this off base, but I picture a military mission.  Troops sneak up on a building, they're spotted and someone shoots at them.  Are they now justified in bombing the building to the ground without knowing if any civilians are in the building just to protect themselves? 

This case is horseshit. And people have a reason to be right pissed off. I'm pissed off and it ain't even happening in my country. 

If anyone has factual information that flies in the face of mine, please let me know.  I'm curious if there is more to this than I know.  For example, if Walker didn't shoot, what would the investigation have turned up?  Was their drugs? Was there evidence of any criminality? If you know, please post. 

Regarding whether it's fair for the cops to go to jail for this... YES, ABSOLUTELY.  How else do you change this shit?  Want to rock a badge and a gun, then take that shit seriously and be responsible. And then go further and hold the investigators accountable for a shitty investigation. If not, do not pass go, go directly to jail. 

Is it such a stretch to think that this keeps happening because cops don't care about the repercussions? 

I've never heard anyone argue the warrant was properly handled through all the channels. Most people agree with your first statements about the warrant.
But from what I read and heard, the police executing the warrant had not been involved in the case, they were just issued a warrant to serve. And so my question still remains. What specifically did the police who entered do wrong, if they were given a no knock warrant they they had no involvement with, and executed it as written? That's assuming they didn't knock, which is still be debated.
My answer is nothing. The police themselves followed a warrant, were shot at and one of them hit and injured, they returned fire. If the fault is within the warrant itself, and I haven't disputed that, then why charge the police who had limited knowledge of the situation and was just serving said warrant, with manslaughter? 
Make changes to the warrant process, where the problem lies. 

I'll answer that with my other statement... you want to have a gun? Do it responsibly, regardless of a badge. Who's fault is it that they had 'limited knowledge' ?  Look.. the problem here is an innocent woman lost her life.  Why manslaughter? What was the cop shooting at? I know the answer. Breonna Taylor.  Why did he shoot her?  (Any reason is not justified.) Like honestly, ...  "Because her boyfriend shot at a cop."   OK... and what does that have to do with Breonna? Cops are trained to have pinpoint accuracy in their shots, yet somehow these cowboys just started unloading on a house?  Gimme a break. 

if i'm being shot at, and especially if i get hit, i'm going to start firing back in defense in the direction the bullet came from. if a cop gets shot, or shot at, he's supposed to wait to return fire only if he can see where the shooting is coming from? even if it's only an open door to an apartment? i think the window shooter was in the wrong, but not the other two. 

Most police departments have a very specific policy on use of deadly force. Spray and pray isn't usually mentioned. This isn't like the movies. You seek cover, if possible and assess. Sure, the gut reaction of a typical person is going to be to fire when fired upon, but that's not what cops are supposed to do if they can't identify a target and don't know what they're shooting at.

haha, i know it's not like the movies, i just thought they had a right to shoot back if being fired up, especially if the target, even if not specifically seen, is in a very small window of space, like the door way. and by the looks of the front of her apartment, besides running away and risk getting shot in the back, it didn't look to me like there would have been anywhere to retreat and assess from. 

I agree, I don't even think it was firing blindly into a small window of space, I think they saw the shot and the shooter. Or at least saw the shot and directly where it came from if not the shooter directly. 
I believe the boyfriend fired from the hallway, is that right? That would be a very small window of space for them to return fire. I think you mentioned earlier that the third cop, firing from outside, was dumb, and I agree. And he wasn't charged with manslaughter because his bullet wasn't believed to have hit Breonna. They went into an apartment next door I think, which demonstrates even more reckless behavior on his behalf. 
Breonna wasn't in bed, in another room as earlier social media reports said, But was in the hallway with her boyfriend walking towards the door when it was broken down and the boyfriend fired.
Its a very sad story. She didn't deserve to die. The police works behind the warrant looks sloppy. I still just don't see it rising to criminal charges though.