No Free Speech on American College Campuses
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I find it odd that in 2020 there are people who still get wound up about "socialists" and "leftists" but could care less that the currently elected president bends over for the Russian dictator.0
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blackhawks said:You are in college at 24 if you are going to be a dr. or something. Otherwise you probably don’t belong if you cannot get your 4 year in 6 lol! Keep taking out those loans for another couple years and you might eventually get that elusive 8 year BA in general studies Tommy Boy.I wasn’t in college then that was another poster. Try harder....especially in college it looks like.You've made your point though. Being a boomer is more about a state of mind:'i got mine f everyone else'You sound old0
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Bentleyspop said:I find it odd that in 2020 there are people who still get wound up about "socialists" and "leftists" but could care less that the currently elected president bends over for the Russian dictator.
not to mention getting taken to task by an actual socialist country over trade, and giving millions in 'free money' to US farms0 -
haha, yeah, cause we all started out with the same opportunities.blackhawks said:I also don’t want dumbasses. After seeing the ‘demonstrations’ by the kids who were brainwashed in college I think we are past if dumbass stage with these entitled whiny fucks.You want kids then by all means pay their way. It is not on me in that regard. I paid my own way as all my friends did. Nut up and pay or help your kid out. As stated in another thread, poor kids get loads of assistance now. So it is not because of financial standing.
if that's the way you think, then nut up and pay for your own fucking roads. i don't need them, why should i pay for your driving habits?
my god. the ignorance.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
thisHughFreakingDillon said:haha, yeah, cause we all started out with the same opportunities.
if that's the way you think, then nut up and pay for your own fucking roads. i don't need them, why should i pay for your driving habits?
my god. the ignorance.
any econ professor will tell you success in life is a lottery.
the family, money and means you are born into
socioeconomic mobility in the United States is not as great as we are told to believe
it's actually pretty terrible and getting worse
but you know....bootstraps and whatnot
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As someone that worked 2-3 full time jobs and still had to take out loans to pay for trade school and is paying off my loans like a real hard working member of society I would just like to add...Why the fuck is it so hard to get a goddamn education in this country. Since this thread got derailed into a debate about higher ed I would also like to add my theory on the cry babies that don’t want others to have free or low cost education. It is because they are butt hurt they had to pay for theirs and think it would be unfair for others to have the benefit of a free education that they didn’t.I had to work hard and I’m paying my loans, if all loans were forgiven and all continuing education was made free the day after I paid mine off, I would still celebrate for the people that won’t have to go through what I did. Imagine how great it would be to have a generation that doesn’t start their professional life burdened by debt. In what way is that a loss or a bad thing?Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden0 -
i completely agree with you. it took me 10 years to pay mine off, and it would be great if other people, younger people, did not have the same burden as I did.static111 said:As someone that worked 2-3 full time jobs and still had to take out loans to pay for trade school and is paying off my loans like a real hard working member of society I would just like to add...Why the fuck is it so hard to get a goddamn education in this country. Since this thread got derailed into a debate about higher ed I would also like to add my theory on the cry babies that don’t want others to have free or low cost education. It is because they are butt hurt they had to pay for theirs and think it would be unfair for others to have the benefit of a free education that they didn’t.I had to work hard and I’m paying my loans, if all loans were forgiven and all continuing education was made free the day after I paid mine off, I would still celebrate for the people that won’t have to go through what I did. Imagine how great it would be to have a generation that doesn’t start their professional life burdened by debt. In what way is that a loss or a bad thing?"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Several points in response to various individuals quoted below. TOO LONG/but better than five posts in succession? Happy Friday!
tbergs: "You just sound out of touch when you tell other people what they should do and what should work for them because it worked for you even though you don't understand their circumstances or situation." Isn't that what you are doing as well? Telling other people they should pay more taxes for someone else's college education just because that works for you? You have no idea what my circumstances or situation is, and yet I'm supposed to believe and think the way you want me to? I agree 100% that tuition is out of control. I agree 100% that college should be affordable for people who are qualified and want to go. I disagree with how we get there.
static: "I would also like to add my theory on the cry babies that don’t want others to have free or low cost education. It is because they are butt hurt they had to pay for theirs and think it would be unfair for others to have the benefit of a free education that they didn’t." No, not true at all in my case. Over the almost 30 years it took me to pay off my loans, my student loan was the only bill I ever paid that I didn't mind paying. I've hated rent payments, car payment, you name the payment -- I hated it. But I have never once regretted a single dime I spent on my education. I believe I said that clearly in telling my story above. My objection to free college tuition has nothing to do with me personally. It's because it singles out a group of people who will experience a tremendous economic advantage/benefit when they are done. Instead of making college free for an elite group, we would do better to make living in general more affordable. Affordable housing. Public transportation networks that people can actually use. A sustainable and affordable food supply. I'm not even against a wealth tax, or a billionaire tax, estate tax, capital gain tax, or any other kind of tax that brings in revenue for the public welfare -- like the roads that Hugh wants me to pay for myself. I'm so sick of that argument, by the way. It's just dumb to compare roads that every single person drives on to a college education that only 30% enjoy. Just dumb.
With Hugh's logic, one could argue that having a car to drive on the road is essential to a person's general welfare. What good is a road if there is no car? Are we going to buy a car for everyone in America as well? Housing -- that's an essential need for human survival. Are we going to grab everyone's paycheck and then redistribute free housing to all? Free food, everyone? One could argue that food is more of a priority than a four year college degree for someone's basic welfare, so why are prioritizing college over food? College -- For whom? The elite 30% who actually go, whose lifetime earnings will far exceed the 70% who don't go? Who as a voting block have political power simply as a result of the very privileged education they pay for? What about that other 70%? What free stuff do they get to lift them up, and who is their advocate? Making college free isn't going to increase the number of people who go to college if poor people don't learn to read by the time they're 18. We have free K-12 education in America, let's not forget. Instead of fighting about free college for the literate, how about we fix the very real and very disgusting fact that in America poor people can't go to or can't finish college because they can't read. It's not because college costs too much. So, no, I do not agree with you, Hugh. It's not so "hard" to be an educated person in America. It's just not. It's way, way, way harder to be an uneducated person in America. For some reason, nobody is campaigning on throwing trillions at K-12 literacy programs that would lift way more people out of poverty than a free college major in Queer Film Studies at Yale.
CM: "success in life is a lottery. the family, money and means you are born into socioeconomic mobility in the United States is not as great as we are told to believe it's actually pretty terrible and getting worse." From an economic standpoint, sure, we agree 100%. I have this same conversation with people all the time. But I just don't happen to believe that my success and my happiness is measured by how much money or things I have. I don't begrudge anybody else who was born into privilege, any more than I'm angry or bitter that I'm cash-strapped month to month. For some reason, you have cast me as a bitter person, and yet based on your outbursts in this thread, I actually think I may be way happier than you are with what little I have in life.
Finally, Bentley, back to the original thread -- you are sadly mistaken if you think I am a Trump supporter just because I've used the word leftists to describe the political leanings of campus protesters. It's just a fact that they are leftists. The word fits. It's not an insult or any indication of my own political leanings. Not only have I been a voting Democrat my entire life, I am active local party member who volunteers on the ground to get Democrats/liberals/leftists/anyone but Rs elected. I live/volunteer in the VA district where the first transgendered person was ever elected to state office in America, and I helped her unseat an R, and I voted for her twice. But I can be a believe in liberalism and believe in civility at the same time. Those two things are not exclusive of each other. That was my point from the very beginning. Our President is not civil. He is a horrible human being. I don't think it's a good idea for colleges to support, encourage, or ignore its left-leaning students when they act like uncivilized Trumpists on campus. That is all.
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what dreams said:
CM: "success in life is a lottery. the family, money and means you are born into socioeconomic mobility in the United States is not as great as we are told to believe it's actually pretty terrible and getting worse." From an economic standpoint, sure, we agree 100%. I have this same conversation with people all the time. But I just don't happen to believe that my success and my happiness is measured by how much money or things I have. I don't begrudge anybody else who was born into privilege, any more than I'm angry or bitter that I'm cash-strapped month to month. For some reason, you have cast me as a bitter person, and yet based on your outbursts in this thread, I actually think I may be way happier than you are with what little I have in life.
"I'm a happy tree! Why should I care about the rest of the forest?"0 -
Seriously though, income disparity creates a lot of problems in our society. Maybe look past the nose on your face.CM189191 said:
"I'm a happy tree! Why should I care about the rest of the forest?"0 -
Quit. Just quit. Dude, I work Every. Single. Day. in a Title I school where 65% of my students live below the poverty line, 90% speak Spanish as their first language, and most are recently arrived from El Salvador and Honduras, and they live in absolute squalor. In the past week alone, I have:CM189191 said:Seriously though, income disparity creates a lot of problems in our society. Maybe look past the nose on your face.
1. Referred a student to an actual licensed counselor who was then admitted to a residential treatment center on suicide watch
2. Counseled on my own a young girl who was molested as a younger child by her mother's boyfriend, because she doesn't want to go to a counselor
3. Comforted a girl whose father (still living in El Salvador) has had his arm cut off with a machete
4. Comforted another girl whose aunt died of cancer
5. Tutored a boy after school where the conversation changed from learning how to read English to understanding the deportation of his father who was pulled over for a DUI
6. Distributed three personally purchased $10.00 Chick-Fil-A cards to the raffle winners who earned a 70 or above on their unit test. Bought five more candy bars to bribe them next week.
7. Handed out pencils, paper, tissues, water bottles to countless kids who perpetually come to class with nothing
8. Contracted ringworm on my face in the process, for fuck's sake
So quit with your g-damn preachy, "you don't know anything about income disparity, look past your own nose" bullshit. Please tell me: what exactly have you done to confront poverty this week? If you can match what I've seen three feet from my nose, then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Somehow I doubt it.
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I stand correctedwhat dreams said:Quit. Just quit. Dude, I work Every. Single. Day. in a Title I school where 65% of my students live below the poverty line, 90% speak Spanish as their first language, and most are recently arrived from El Salvador and Honduras, and they live in absolute squalor. In the past week alone, I have:
1. Referred a student to an actual licensed counselor who was then admitted to a residential treatment center on suicide watch
2. Counseled on my own a young girl who was molested as a younger child by her mother's boyfriend, because she doesn't want to go to a counselor
3. Comforted a girl whose father (still living in El Salvador) has had his arm cut off with a machete
4. Comforted another girl whose aunt died of cancer
5. Tutored a boy after school where the conversation changed from learning how to read English to understanding the deportation of his father who was pulled over for a DUI
6. Distributed three personally purchased $10.00 Chick-Fil-A cards to the raffle winners who earned a 70 or above on their unit test. Bought five more candy bars to bribe them next week.
7. Handed out pencils, paper, tissues, water bottles to countless kids who perpetually come to class with nothing
8. Contracted ringworm on my face in the process, for fuck's sake
So quit with your g-damn preachy, "you don't know anything about income disparity, look past your own nose" bullshit. Please tell me: what exactly have you done to confront poverty this week? If you can match what I've seen three feet from my nose, then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Somehow I doubt it.
Income disparity hasn't made you angry or bitter at all0 -
Yeah, that's all you've got. Another shot at me. That's what I thought.CM189191 said:0 -
Is everyone the same intelligence?CM189191 said:Seriously though, income disparity creates a lot of problems in our society. Maybe look past the nose on your face.
Is everyone the same artistically?
i could go on but you still wouldn’t get it. You don’t get that just spreading wealth around not only never ever has worked ever in a place called reality but that it is a killer to the economy. Nobody is afraid of socialist BS. We are just amazed people are so fucking stupid to think that it will actually work when it never has. Ever.Some institutions do a thing called AIS (I think) loans where the student signs up for 8% of their income for 8-9 years. After that if anything is left it is forgiven. That is so
ething I could get on board with.91 - Ames Iowa CY Stephens Auditorium
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When was it ever discussed only to provide free education for an elite group. Isn’t the whole argument, free education at public schools and universities For All? I’m still not quite following why you are against this concept, is it free trade schools/university in general or just that you think the money and effort for this type of project would take away from something else? Like I said I worked 3 jobs and took out loans just to go to trade school. That is ridiculous. I think it would be great if people could get through their educational years without worrying about tuition.what dreams static: "I would also like to add my theory on the cry babies that don’t want others to have free or low cost education. It is because they are butt hurt they had to pay for theirs and think it would be unfair for others to have the benefit of a free education that they didn’t." No, not true at all in my case. Over the almost 30 years it took me to pay off my loans, my student loan was the only bill I ever paid that I didn't mind paying. I've hated rent payments, car payment, you name the payment -- I hated it. But I have never once regretted a single dime I spent on my education. I believe I said that clearly in telling my story above. My objection to free college tuition has nothing to do with me personally. It's because it singles out a group of people who will experience a tremendous economic advantage/benefit when they are done. Instead of making college free for an elite group, we would do better to make living in general more affordable. Affordable housing. Public transportation networks that people can actually use. A sustainable and affordable food supply. I'm not even against a wealth tax, or a billionaire tax, estate tax, capital gain tax, or any other kind of tax that brings in revenue for the public welfare --Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden0 -
You sound overworked and underpaidwhat dreams said:Yeah, that's all you've got. Another shot at me. That's what I thought.0 -
No but everyone should be afforded the opportunities.blackhawks said:Is everyone the same intelligence?
Is everyone the same artistically?
i could go on but you still wouldn’t get it. You don’t get that just spreading wealth around not only never ever has worked ever in a place called reality but that it is a killer to the economy. Nobody is afraid of socialist BS. We are just amazed people are so fucking stupid to think that it will actually work when it never has. Ever.Some institutions do a thing called AIS (I think) loans where the student signs up for 8% of their income for 8-9 years. After that if anything is left it is forgiven. That is so
ething I could get on board with.
There's a whole population of people out there who haven't been able to live up to their potential.
It's not an efficient allocation of resources. And our country is falling behind because of it.
But apparently there is a shortage of ditch diggers that I am unaware of.Post edited by CM189191 on0 -
Someone explains, quite civilly, their stances.
Response? Potshot.
Rinse a fuckload, repeat.
So much for the sharing and processing of ideas with some semblance of an open mind.
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Not living up to potential is just not free college. It is the family or lack thereof guiding a child, the public school they go to, economic advantage which is not strictly rich. Lower income kids have more opportunity for scholarships, etc than a middle class kid. The middle class feels the squeeze quite a bit.CM189191 said:No but everyone should be afforded the opportunities.
There's a whole population of people out there who haven't been able to live up to their potential.
It's not an efficient allocation of resources. And our country is falling behind because of it.
But apparently there is a shortage of ditch diggers that I am unaware of.There are programs like ABC which I contribute to and was a board member of in a city I used to live in. That is great program lifting kids out of poverty that need an opportunity. On our city over 90% graduated college. But it is more than free as the kids have deliverables. These type of programs should be expanded on to help low income kids get a chance. Because often they just don’t know how because of family situation.The falling behind is being based more on testing teaching rather than actually teaching. As well as schools losing their way in how to prepare kids for life rather that worry about social this and that which won’t get you a paycheck. Need a better balance. It took a generation or two of bad guidance to fuck it up.....not going to happen overnight.91 - Ames Iowa CY Stephens Auditorium
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2018 - Seattle 2/Missoula0
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