No Free Speech on American College Campuses

Smellyman · March 2020

Image: https://www.full-stop.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/never-argue-with-stupid-people-mark-twain.jpg

hedonist · March 2020

It’s a shame that a reasonable and articulate response was poo-pooed as much as the link in the OP.

Matts3221 · March 2020

dmaradona10 said:

Glad I went to college in the 1990s where there was a diversity of viewpoints and opinions. Speakers with controversial viewpoints were a common occurrence as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNEyUsDprPY

I know I know why even bother because nothing would really matter or change minds. Colleges in the 90's when I went had protest for hard line viewers , again I always find it funny ( Much like trump ) that these people will basically yell fire in a crowded movie theater and make the most inflammatory comments you can imaging and then act so surprised that they show up somewhere and people are there to protest ( looking at your Rush L as we did protest you coming to our campus in 1997 )

I am all for a civil discussion were those that have opposing views and figuring things out , I am not for those that have nothing but hate and again say high controversial opinions , also keep in mind most of them know there will be a protest but show up again for the whole " oh my , I just came here to speak nicely but you all hate me " and then they are picked up on fox.

I am sure Sean Hannity has a running list of guest ( Kent State Gun Girl ) who show up to just cause a ruckus but have no intention of ever having an actual debate with those with opposing view points.

Go Beavers · March 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

This has become all too common. Rather than disagreeing with the "controversial speaker" (it's usually just some ho-hum conservative like the woman in the video you posted), or holding a counter-event, they try to block the speaker from even speaking.

Is it really all too common or is this a fear driven narrative by the right wing, using anecdotal incidents, to polarize society and create an enemy in the “educated elite”?

I started college in 88 and there was always this nutjob preacher on the mall that would make the rounds at different schools. One day he had a gash on his head because someone threw a rock and hit him on the head at his previous stop at Indiana University.

Ledbetterman10 · March 2020

Go Beavers said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

This has become all too common. Rather than disagreeing with the "controversial speaker" (it's usually just some ho-hum conservative like the woman in the video you posted), or holding a counter-event, they try to block the speaker from even speaking.

Is it really all too common or is this a fear driven narrative by the right wing, using anecdotal incidents, to polarize society and create an enemy in the “educated elite”?

Or maybe this is a deflective narrative by you: suggesting it’s just a fear-driven narrative, dismissing incidents as “anecdotal,” and claiming that it’s meant to create an enemy. I’m not on the left or the right so I don’t want to judge narrative battles. But from my perspective, I’ve seen or read about enough of these incidents to believe there’s something to the right’s “narrative.”

tbergs · March 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

Go Beavers said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

This has become all too common. Rather than disagreeing with the "controversial speaker" (it's usually just some ho-hum conservative like the woman in the video you posted), or holding a counter-event, they try to block the speaker from even speaking.

Is it really all too common or is this a fear driven narrative by the right wing, using anecdotal incidents, to polarize society and create an enemy in the “educated elite”?

Or maybe this is a deflective narrative by you: suggesting it’s just a fear-driven narrative, dismissing incidents as “anecdotal,” and claiming that it’s meant to create an enemy. I’m not on the left or the right so I don’t want to judge narrative battles. But from my perspective, I’ve seen or read about enough of these incidents to believe there’s something to the right’s “narrative.”

Lots of references to the 90's and how accepting colleges were. How does anyone actually know that besides what they remember from their own experience? With the social media craze of the past 10 years and our current POTUS, everything is now blown up and given attention. I'm sure plenty of opposing crazy views were rejected in the 80's and 90's, the difference is that no one cared or gave the nut job a voice. The college said no and they went away or went back to their niche crowd that found their opinions in personally printed papers and brochures littered in the entry of the local establishment looking to draw in the free thinkers of the world. Now they can upload their own videos and tweet @ some like minded nut job with a high profile and then end up getting some media that feeds the narrative whichever way makes it more popular among the target audience.

HughFreakingDillon · March 2020

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

what dreams · March 2020

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

They don't have to schedule them. They're already paid faculty in the humanities departments.

Spoken like an English major of the 90s.

what dreams · March 2020

CM189191 said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

And this ^^^^ is why I wonder how people expect this democracy to survive. You're basically making the argument easy for "the nutters" to win. When you dismiss people instead of attacking the argument, you lose. When you refuse to show up with the power of your ideas, you lose. Don't turn Stossel, et. al., off. Confront them face on and actually win an argument.

It's not worth the effort. You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose.
Does the force of argument matter to flat earthers, birthers, or orange girthers?
Nope.

^this

Except this particular speaker has published well-documented research about inner city crime, urban citizens' attitudes toward it, and police training and response to it. Wish I could remember the title of the book I read. It opened up a lot of thinking for me. Reading it didn't turn me into a hater of black people or less sympathetic to BLM or sway me to believe police are perfect enforcers of the law. It did help me understand the issues African Americans face in their neighborhoods, though, and how a large number of cities in America have successful programs in place to bring citizens and police together, which never makes the news.

It's so bizarre to me that supposedly well educated people would be so opposed to reading or having discussions with people with opposing viewpoints.

Go Beavers · March 2020

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

They don't have to schedule them. They're already paid faculty in the humanities departments.

Spoken like an English major of the 90s.

I would think most professors are anti-fascist.

Go Beavers · March 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

Go Beavers said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

This has become all too common. Rather than disagreeing with the "controversial speaker" (it's usually just some ho-hum conservative like the woman in the video you posted), or holding a counter-event, they try to block the speaker from even speaking.

Is it really all too common or is this a fear driven narrative by the right wing, using anecdotal incidents, to polarize society and create an enemy in the “educated elite”?

Or maybe this is a deflective narrative by you: suggesting it’s just a fear-driven narrative, dismissing incidents as “anecdotal,” and claiming that it’s meant to create an enemy. I’m not on the left or the right so I don’t want to judge narrative battles. But from my perspective, I’ve seen or read about enough of these incidents to believe there’s something to the right’s “narrative.”

I’m not deflecting anything. If someone is going to claim a societal trend, then they need to find a way to support their theory by creating a way to measure these incidents over time with historical data that’s reliable. Don’t leave out the sixties with it’s upheaval, protests, and tensions around rapid cultural change.

brianlux · March 2020

I would be cool with free speech on 10 C forums, especially after having paid for annual (aka "Christmas") singles that never showed up.

dignin · March 2020

brianlux said:

I would be cool with free speech on 10 C forums, especially after having paid for annual (aka "Christmas") singles that never showed up.

We still get those?

blackhawks · March 2020

Go Beavers said:

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

They don't have to schedule them. They're already paid faculty in the humanities departments.

Spoken like an English major of the 90s.

I would think most professors are anti-fascist.

You are giving professors (that probably couldn’t make it in the private sector) too much credit.

CM189191 · March 2020

what dreams said:

CM189191 said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

And this ^^^^ is why I wonder how people expect this democracy to survive. You're basically making the argument easy for "the nutters" to win. When you dismiss people instead of attacking the argument, you lose. When you refuse to show up with the power of your ideas, you lose. Don't turn Stossel, et. al., off. Confront them face on and actually win an argument.

It's not worth the effort. You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose.
Does the force of argument matter to flat earthers, birthers, or orange girthers?
Nope.

^this

Except this particular speaker has published well-documented research about inner city crime, urban citizens' attitudes toward it, and police training and response to it. Wish I could remember the title of the book I read. It opened up a lot of thinking for me. Reading it didn't turn me into a hater of black people or less sympathetic to BLM or sway me to believe police are perfect enforcers of the law. It did help me understand the issues African Americans face in their neighborhoods, though, and how a large number of cities in America have successful programs in place to bring citizens and police together, which never makes the news.

It's so bizarre to me that supposedly well educated people would be so opposed to reading or having discussions with people with opposing viewpoints.

'Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts'
'And here, right matters'
'Right matters and the truth matters'

it's the difference between opposing viewpoints and opposing reality
how do you argue with a population that exists on an entirely different plane?

You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose

Since retirement, my father has been slowly brain washed by Fox News. I don't even try to argue with my father anymore. I just roll up a newspaper and swat him over the head. It's been the most effective method and he's starting to come back around.

Go Beavers · March 2020

blackhawks said:

Go Beavers said:

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

They don't have to schedule them. They're already paid faculty in the humanities departments.

Spoken like an English major of the 90s.

I would think most professors are anti-fascist.

You are giving professors (that probably couldn’t make it in the private sector) too much credit.

I’ve met a lot of professors and my dad was one. Never known one to be pro-fascist.

blackhawks · March 2020

Go Beavers said:

blackhawks said:

Go Beavers said:

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

They don't have to schedule them. They're already paid faculty in the humanities departments.

Spoken like an English major of the 90s.

I would think most professors are anti-fascist.

You are giving professors (that probably couldn’t make it in the private sector) too much credit.

I’ve met a lot of professors and my dad was one. Never known one to be pro-fascist.

Not was my brother or his wife. But they were in genetics/science. Not liberal arts, etc.

Go Beavers · March 2020

blackhawks said:

Go Beavers said:

blackhawks said:

Go Beavers said:

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe these colleges aren't against conservatives per say, maybe just conservatives who have a high probability of inciting, or at least being a direct or indirect cause of violence?

do colleges routinely schedule antifa representatives to speak on campus?

They don't have to schedule them. They're already paid faculty in the humanities departments.

Spoken like an English major of the 90s.

I would think most professors are anti-fascist.

You are giving professors (that probably couldn’t make it in the private sector) too much credit.

I’ve met a lot of professors and my dad was one. Never known one to be pro-fascist.

Not was my brother or his wife. But they were in genetics/science. Not liberal arts, etc.

I guess it goes back to what people think antifa is, which is loosely organized groups of people here and there that form counter protests to right wing and white supremacist rallies. Within the groups you have opportunists there to bust stuff up or get into violent altercations. Not sure how many professors are into that latter group who are punching people out.

Smellyman · March 2020

CM189191 said:

what dreams said:

CM189191 said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

And this ^^^^ is why I wonder how people expect this democracy to survive. You're basically making the argument easy for "the nutters" to win. When you dismiss people instead of attacking the argument, you lose. When you refuse to show up with the power of your ideas, you lose. Don't turn Stossel, et. al., off. Confront them face on and actually win an argument.

It's not worth the effort. You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose.
Does the force of argument matter to flat earthers, birthers, or orange girthers?
Nope.

^this

Except this particular speaker has published well-documented research about inner city crime, urban citizens' attitudes toward it, and police training and response to it. Wish I could remember the title of the book I read. It opened up a lot of thinking for me. Reading it didn't turn me into a hater of black people or less sympathetic to BLM or sway me to believe police are perfect enforcers of the law. It did help me understand the issues African Americans face in their neighborhoods, though, and how a large number of cities in America have successful programs in place to bring citizens and police together, which never makes the news.

It's so bizarre to me that supposedly well educated people would be so opposed to reading or having discussions with people with opposing viewpoints.

'Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts'
'And here, right matters'
'Right matters and the truth matters'

it's the difference between opposing viewpoints and opposing reality
how do you argue with a population that exists on an entirely different plane?

You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose

Since retirement, my father has been slowly brain washed by Fox News. I don't even try to argue with my father anymore. I just roll up a newspaper and swat him over the head. It's been the most effective method and he's starting to come back around.

My Uncle and a few of my Dad's friends have been slowly brainwashed by Fox and right wing radio too. They are incapable of rational thought now. Just anger.

Sad to see

what dreams · March 2020

CM189191 said:

what dreams said:

CM189191 said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

And this ^^^^ is why I wonder how people expect this democracy to survive. You're basically making the argument easy for "the nutters" to win. When you dismiss people instead of attacking the argument, you lose. When you refuse to show up with the power of your ideas, you lose. Don't turn Stossel, et. al., off. Confront them face on and actually win an argument.

It's not worth the effort. You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose.
Does the force of argument matter to flat earthers, birthers, or orange girthers?
Nope.

^this

Except this particular speaker has published well-documented research about inner city crime, urban citizens' attitudes toward it, and police training and response to it. Wish I could remember the title of the book I read. It opened up a lot of thinking for me. Reading it didn't turn me into a hater of black people or less sympathetic to BLM or sway me to believe police are perfect enforcers of the law. It did help me understand the issues African Americans face in their neighborhoods, though, and how a large number of cities in America have successful programs in place to bring citizens and police together, which never makes the news.

It's so bizarre to me that supposedly well educated people would be so opposed to reading or having discussions with people with opposing viewpoints.

'Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts'
'And here, right matters'
'Right matters and the truth matters'

it's the difference between opposing viewpoints and opposing reality
how do you argue with a population that exists on an entirely different plane?

You don't argue with crazy/stupid, crazy/stupid doesn't lose

Since retirement, my father has been slowly brain washed by Fox News. I don't even try to argue with my father anymore. I just roll up a newspaper and swat him over the head. It's been the most effective method and he's starting to come back around.

You all are talking about the average doofus. We all have them in our family. I get that. Family dinners suck when Uncle Doofus starts talking about the pizza parlor again.

I'm talking about the scholar who was invited to a college campus by a group of students who wanted to hear her to share what she learned in her research that she documented in a book that I read and found pretty interesting and could reasonably share on the gun/cop killer thread here on the AMT.

She is absolutely correct in this video that there is something wrong when a "liberal arts education" on a college campus involves not just ignoring an entire set of facts because you don't like the conclusions they lead to, but also causing public disturbances and committing violence to stop the presentation of facts. On a college campus, you are not required to take courses you don't want to take. You are not required to attend free lectures that you don't want to listen to. You can argue all day long about what free speech means at the Constitutional level, but it is completely anti-intellectual and anti-academic freedom to shut down the presentation of ideas on a college campus just because you don't like them.

No Free Speech on American College Campuses

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