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RIP Kobe Bryant

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  • RenfieldRenfield NYC NYPosts: 722
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
    that you are ignoring key aspects of the evidence because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notion of guilt. 
    like the $2.5 million that changed hands to shut up the victim?

    bc that seems like a pretty key aspect of guilt
    if you go by the theory that all payouts in civil suits are an admission of guilt, would it stand to reason that acceptance of said payments instead of actual justice is always an admission of extortion?
    I was going to re-quote CM's post that started this whole discussion.  And it wasn't about his clearly flawed life, mistakes, miscarriages of justice.  It was, what I interpreted as a callous celebration of his death.  I can't quote because Sea has removed it, including all of the quotes of it for it being inappropriate.  So.. what does that tell you...
    Hallelujah. Thanks Sea. 
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 7,985
    edited January 2020
    This seems pretty PC on Wapo's part. I guess if she violated a company policy, then she should have known, but man...

    A Washington Post reporter has been suspended after she tweeted an old article about Kobe Bryant being accused of rape, shortly after the news of the NBA legend's death broke.

    Felicia Sonmez, a national political reporter for The Washington Post, on Sunday afternoon tweeted a 2016 Daily Beast article with the headline, "Kobe Bryant’s Disturbing Rape Case: The DNA Evidence, the Accuser’s Story, and the Half-Confession."

    Sonmez later deleted the tweet and others, defending her decision to share the article. "Any public figure is worth remembering in their totality, even if that public figure beloved and that totality upsetting," Sonmez wrote.

    One of the Washington Post's managing editors, Tracy Grant, said in a statement released to NBC News on Monday that Sonmez "was placed on administrative leave while The Post reviews whether tweets about the death of Kobe Bryant violated The Post newsroom’s social media policy."

    "The tweets displayed poor judgment that undermined the work of her colleagues," Grant said.

    The Post did not specify which tweets in particular prompted the suspension or which social media policy she violated.

    Many people expressed equal outrage that the Post had decided to put Sonmez on leave following her tweets.

    The Washington Post "should reinstate Felicia Sonmez. An overreaction to the keyboard warriors. While you can debate the timing of the tweets, it's a relevant detail to the life of Kobe Bryant. A newspaper silencing a journalist sets a terrible example," one person wrote.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/washington-post-suspends-reporter-after-kobe-bryant-rape-allegation-tweet-n1124031
    Post edited by tbergs on
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,202
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
     For the second time: Why was another man's semen and pubic hair found in her underwear that she turned over to investigators?

    I'd love for rape to be cancelled from our culture! Yeah! However, one can hope for that while also not believing every single allegation that comes out....especially ones that don't even make it to trial. 

    Answer or not. Up to you. 

    More victim blaming....Why does it matter that someone else's semen and pubic hair was found?  

    It was introduced was bc it made it difficult to test for evidence.  And it was used to slander the victim.  

    So the victim had sex with someone else the day before she was raped by Kobe.  How is that relevant?  Does that somehow make Kobe innocent?  

    Ha.

    Talking about evidence is considered "victim blaming" to today's Cancel Culture Warriors. This is a huge piece of evidence and likely part of the reason the prosecution was afraid to go to trial. 

    How on earth can a defendant defend him or herself when every piece of evidence would be considered "victim blaming?"

    She had "vaginal trauma" because, she said, of the forced sex. But she didn't say that she had sex afterwards. They only discovered that because the DNA test found that evidence on her underwear. So the defense argued that having sex multiple times in a short time frame would result in this kind of  "trauma." Reasonable enough, right? Her excuse for having another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she was bringing to investigators was that she just grabbed dirty underwear from her laundry basket by mistake. 

    As much as you'd like it to be, this was most definitely not an open and shut case. 

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,202
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
    that you are ignoring key aspects of the evidence because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notion of guilt. 
    like the $2.5 million that changed hands to shut up the victim?

    bc that seems like a pretty key aspect of guilt
    if you go by the theory that all payouts in civil suits are an admission of guilt, would it stand to reason that acceptance of said payments instead of actual justice is always an admission of extortion?

    no, this is dumb


    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,744
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
     For the second time: Why was another man's semen and pubic hair found in her underwear that she turned over to investigators?

    I'd love for rape to be cancelled from our culture! Yeah! However, one can hope for that while also not believing every single allegation that comes out....especially ones that don't even make it to trial. 

    Answer or not. Up to you. 

    More victim blaming....Why does it matter that someone else's semen and pubic hair was found?  

    It was introduced was bc it made it difficult to test for evidence.  And it was used to slander the victim.  

    So the victim had sex with someone else the day before she was raped by Kobe.  How is that relevant?  Does that somehow make Kobe innocent?  

    Ha.

    Talking about evidence is considered "victim blaming" to today's Cancel Culture Warriors. This is a huge piece of evidence and likely part of the reason the prosecution was afraid to go to trial. 

    How on earth can a defendant defend him or herself when every piece of evidence would be considered "victim blaming?"

    She had "vaginal trauma" because, she said, of the forced sex. But she didn't say that she had sex afterwards. They only discovered that because the DNA test found that evidence on her underwear. So the defense argued that having sex multiple times in a short time frame would result in this kind of  "trauma." Reasonable enough, right? Her excuse for having another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she was bringing to investigators was that she just grabbed dirty underwear from her laundry basket by mistake. 

    As much as you'd like it to be, this was most definitely not an open and shut case. 

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  
    It was argued that she had sex after she claimed to be raped. Seems as if she would've mentioned that. 

    No evidence, again- as much as you'd like there to be, of her being coerced into settlement.

    Your last sentence is laughably desperate. 

    Alright thanks for playing. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,098
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
    that you are ignoring key aspects of the evidence because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notion of guilt. 
    like the $2.5 million that changed hands to shut up the victim?

    bc that seems like a pretty key aspect of guilt
    if you go by the theory that all payouts in civil suits are an admission of guilt, would it stand to reason that acceptance of said payments instead of actual justice is always an admission of extortion?

    no, this is dumb


    of course it is. both statements are equally stupid. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,254
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
     For the second time: Why was another man's semen and pubic hair found in her underwear that she turned over to investigators?

    I'd love for rape to be cancelled from our culture! Yeah! However, one can hope for that while also not believing every single allegation that comes out....especially ones that don't even make it to trial. 

    Answer or not. Up to you. 

    More victim blaming....Why does it matter that someone else's semen and pubic hair was found?  

    It was introduced was bc it made it difficult to test for evidence.  And it was used to slander the victim.  

    So the victim had sex with someone else the day before she was raped by Kobe.  How is that relevant?  Does that somehow make Kobe innocent?  

    Ha.

    Talking about evidence is considered "victim blaming" to today's Cancel Culture Warriors. This is a huge piece of evidence and likely part of the reason the prosecution was afraid to go to trial. 

    How on earth can a defendant defend him or herself when every piece of evidence would be considered "victim blaming?"

    She had "vaginal trauma" because, she said, of the forced sex. But she didn't say that she had sex afterwards. They only discovered that because the DNA test found that evidence on her underwear. So the defense argued that having sex multiple times in a short time frame would result in this kind of  "trauma." Reasonable enough, right? Her excuse for having another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she was bringing to investigators was that she just grabbed dirty underwear from her laundry basket by mistake. 

    As much as you'd like it to be, this was most definitely not an open and shut case. 

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  
    It may not be exculpatory, but it casts doubt, which is important in a criminal trial.  I honestly don't know this case at all, so what was damning evidence against Bryant?  If you say it's the vaginal damage, then the DNA and the fact that she had sex multiple times in a day could become exculpatory pretty quickly.  
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,202
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
    that you are ignoring key aspects of the evidence because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notion of guilt. 
    like the $2.5 million that changed hands to shut up the victim?

    bc that seems like a pretty key aspect of guilt
    if you go by the theory that all payouts in civil suits are an admission of guilt, would it stand to reason that acceptance of said payments instead of actual justice is always an admission of extortion?

    no, this is dumb


    of course it is. both statements are equally stupid. 
    i expected better from you hfd
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,098
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
    that you are ignoring key aspects of the evidence because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notion of guilt. 
    like the $2.5 million that changed hands to shut up the victim?

    bc that seems like a pretty key aspect of guilt
    if you go by the theory that all payouts in civil suits are an admission of guilt, would it stand to reason that acceptance of said payments instead of actual justice is always an admission of extortion?

    no, this is dumb


    of course it is. both statements are equally stupid. 
    i expected better from you hfd
    all civil payouts equate to guilt to you?
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,202
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
     For the second time: Why was another man's semen and pubic hair found in her underwear that she turned over to investigators?

    I'd love for rape to be cancelled from our culture! Yeah! However, one can hope for that while also not believing every single allegation that comes out....especially ones that don't even make it to trial. 

    Answer or not. Up to you. 

    More victim blaming....Why does it matter that someone else's semen and pubic hair was found?  

    It was introduced was bc it made it difficult to test for evidence.  And it was used to slander the victim.  

    So the victim had sex with someone else the day before she was raped by Kobe.  How is that relevant?  Does that somehow make Kobe innocent?  

    Ha.

    Talking about evidence is considered "victim blaming" to today's Cancel Culture Warriors. This is a huge piece of evidence and likely part of the reason the prosecution was afraid to go to trial. 

    How on earth can a defendant defend him or herself when every piece of evidence would be considered "victim blaming?"

    She had "vaginal trauma" because, she said, of the forced sex. But she didn't say that she had sex afterwards. They only discovered that because the DNA test found that evidence on her underwear. So the defense argued that having sex multiple times in a short time frame would result in this kind of  "trauma." Reasonable enough, right? Her excuse for having another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she was bringing to investigators was that she just grabbed dirty underwear from her laundry basket by mistake. 

    As much as you'd like it to be, this was most definitely not an open and shut case. 

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  
    It may not be exculpatory, but it casts doubt, which is important in a criminal trial.  I honestly don't know this case at all, so what was damning evidence against Bryant?  If you say it's the vaginal damage, then the DNA and the fact that she had sex multiple times in a day could become exculpatory pretty quickly.  

    There's a pretty wide chasm between doubt and reasonable doubt

    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,254
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Redemption requires an acknowledgement and admission of guilt and honest efforts to make amends to the person harmed. Do people think that adequately happened? 
    yes. 
    +1
    No it didn't. He never admitted to raping her and wasn't convicted of it either...
    k, I somewhat read often's question incorrectly. No, he didn't make amends to the person harmed. But he moved forward making amends to the broader community of women, in my opinion. 

    however, I can't personally reconcile "I thought it was consensual". I mean, if she was screaming and saying no the entire time, how is that not obvious? so there's obviously more to it. 
    We were not there. According to him she wasn't doing that. She said no to his.....placing some bodily fluids on her face. The fact that she said no to that and didn't say no to anything else is the reason he thought it was consensual. At least, from what I remember...

    So my point is he never apologized for raping her because he believes he did not rape her. 

    Kobe also lied about having sex with her at all in the first place.  Then he suddenly remember strangling her after being confronted with additional evidence.  

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. 

    When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." 

    Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that the accuser was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. In addition to the woman's moral character and reputation being challenged by Bryant's defense lawyer, she received death threats and hate mail and her identity was leaked multiple times.

    real nice guy

    Did I say he was a nice guy? I believe I said earlier that he was an arrogant asshole going back to high school.

    She also lied to investigators about numerous things. Another man's semen and pubic hair were found on her underwear. 

    This is victim blaming at it's finest.  Liars don't get a 2.5 million out of court settlement.  

    Show your work - how did she lie?  What did she lie about?

    The victim was painted as a liar.  Her name was leaked, her character and reputation were assassinated.  
    Why don't you show your work?  I'm just reiterating a fact of the case. What I said was literally a fact that can easily be verified. Was there or was there not another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she turned over to investigators?
    Kobe's defense argued that having sex multiple times in the same day would be consistent with the vaginal trauma or whatever it's called she was experiencing. She also lied to investigators about why she was late for work that morning. So both of them initially lied.

    Victim's also go to trial if they believe their story. See, this goes both ways. 


    Folks, this an example of someone so entrenched in their Cancel Culture mentality that they lose all objectivity. Go back and read what I said earlier this morning. I've known Kobe before most of the rest of the country knew him because we went to rival schools. I'm literally one of the  original Kobe Haters. I was no fan of Kobe Bryant and because of that, at the time, I wanted to believe he was guilty of this crime. But if you go back and read about the details of the case you can see why it did not make it to trial. I'm trying to give you an objective view of this whole thing. 


    wow, a lot of mental gymnastics to defend a rapist here. 

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    Kobe's lie : I didn't rape that women
    victim's lie : I was late to work bc car trouble, not bc I overslept
    totes the same!

    what's your angle here?  women who sleep with other men can't be raped?  
    any thoughts on what she was wearing at the time? 
    You said show your work. I did. You essentially have no retort. 

    Cancel Culture at it's worst, folks. 

    Cancel culture?  What does even mean?  Or are you just throwing around buzz words now?

    Yes, I would like toxic masculinity, harassment, rape and abuse to be cancelled from our culture

    ...not sure what you are suggesting here...
     For the second time: Why was another man's semen and pubic hair found in her underwear that she turned over to investigators?

    I'd love for rape to be cancelled from our culture! Yeah! However, one can hope for that while also not believing every single allegation that comes out....especially ones that don't even make it to trial. 

    Answer or not. Up to you. 

    More victim blaming....Why does it matter that someone else's semen and pubic hair was found?  

    It was introduced was bc it made it difficult to test for evidence.  And it was used to slander the victim.  

    So the victim had sex with someone else the day before she was raped by Kobe.  How is that relevant?  Does that somehow make Kobe innocent?  

    Ha.

    Talking about evidence is considered "victim blaming" to today's Cancel Culture Warriors. This is a huge piece of evidence and likely part of the reason the prosecution was afraid to go to trial. 

    How on earth can a defendant defend him or herself when every piece of evidence would be considered "victim blaming?"

    She had "vaginal trauma" because, she said, of the forced sex. But she didn't say that she had sex afterwards. They only discovered that because the DNA test found that evidence on her underwear. So the defense argued that having sex multiple times in a short time frame would result in this kind of  "trauma." Reasonable enough, right? Her excuse for having another man's semen and pubic hair on her underwear that she was bringing to investigators was that she just grabbed dirty underwear from her laundry basket by mistake. 

    As much as you'd like it to be, this was most definitely not an open and shut case. 

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  
    It may not be exculpatory, but it casts doubt, which is important in a criminal trial.  I honestly don't know this case at all, so what was damning evidence against Bryant?  If you say it's the vaginal damage, then the DNA and the fact that she had sex multiple times in a day could become exculpatory pretty quickly.  

    There's a pretty wide chasm between doubt and reasonable doubt

    The bar is beyond a reasonable doubt.  So is the vaginal damage the evidence?
  • CM189191 said:

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  

    Kraft, a 78 year old with no priors, is facing two misdemeanor charges for solicitation. Pretend he isn't the owner of the Patriots for the sake of this conversation, and tell me based on the facts I just stated what a just punishment would be.


    & please don't bring up sex trafficking, the Palm Beach prosecutor has already said there's no evidence of that in this case.


  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,733
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    My thoughts, he made a huge mistake that people in power/ money feel entitled to with no consequences. Probably the first time in his life that he couldn't cover it up as he was a pro from HS. From there, he did reform. Fixed his family, publicly apologized and did do a lot of charity work. Definitely one of the best ever players but questionable morals for half his life. I feel terrible for his wife and surviving children. 
    And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the p****. You can do anything.
    Wait at least a day before you dance on the grave.  Everyone knows your pov.
    And what point of view is that?

    Rapists = bad ?

    That the world is a better place with one less rapist in it? 

    That point of view?
    Evidently you don't believe in contrition or redemption.  Good for you.  

    I believe in redemption

    Remind me again how many days Kobe spent in jail?
    That's cool that you're also happy that three young girls lost their father,  including am infant.  

    If he was in jail instead of on a helicopter he might still be alive
    This thread is to mourn the man & his daughter tragically killed in an accident, if you wanna bash it’s your choice so please start your own thread to bash him ..


    I feel for the daughter, I really do.  She was an innocent victim.

    So was the massage therapist Kobe raped.  She was an innocent victim and someone's daughter as well. 

    If I were a Christian, perhaps I might suggest this was God's way of taking an eye for an eye, but that would be uncouth.

    How many women do you think Kobe raped before he caught?  Do you really think that was the only time?

    Like I said you can start a thread and title it appropriately, have a goodnight 

    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,202
    CM189191 said:

    This is not exculpatory evidence.  Again....she can't be raped bc she had sex w/someone else the day before?  

    What do you need?  Video evidence like Robert Kraft?  bc that asshole is probably going to get off too.  

    A factor in the woman’s decision to ask prosecutors to drop the case was mistakes by the tiny court in Eagle, Colo., that her attorneys said caused her to lose faith in the judicial system. Her name was mistakenly released to the media three times and a sealed transcript of a closed hearing on DNA evidence was emailed to seven media outlets.

    She was coerced into settlement.  There was huge power disparity here.  

    I guess rape is ok as long as your good at sportsball and have lots of money to buy your freedom.  

    Kraft, a 78 year old with no priors, is facing two misdemeanor charges for solicitation. Pretend he isn't the owner of the Patriots for the sake of this conversation, and tell me based on the facts I just stated what a just punishment would be.


    & please don't bring up sex trafficking, the Palm Beach prosecutor has already said there's no evidence of that in this case.

    yeah...Palm Beach has a real good track record with rich people and looking the other way when it comes to sex trafficking
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,202
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    My thoughts, he made a huge mistake that people in power/ money feel entitled to with no consequences. Probably the first time in his life that he couldn't cover it up as he was a pro from HS. From there, he did reform. Fixed his family, publicly apologized and did do a lot of charity work. Definitely one of the best ever players but questionable morals for half his life. I feel terrible for his wife and surviving children. 
    And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the p****. You can do anything.
    Wait at least a day before you dance on the grave.  Everyone knows your pov.
    And what point of view is that?

    Rapists = bad ?

    That the world is a better place with one less rapist in it? 

    That point of view?
    Evidently you don't believe in contrition or redemption.  Good for you.  

    I believe in redemption

    Remind me again how many days Kobe spent in jail?
    That's cool that you're also happy that three young girls lost their father,  including am infant.  

    If he was in jail instead of on a helicopter he might still be alive
    This thread is to mourn the man & his daughter tragically killed in an accident, if you wanna bash it’s your choice so please start your own thread to bash him ..


    I feel for the daughter, I really do.  She was an innocent victim.

    So was the massage therapist Kobe raped.  She was an innocent victim and someone's daughter as well. 

    If I were a Christian, perhaps I might suggest this was God's way of taking an eye for an eye, but that would be uncouth.

    How many women do you think Kobe raped before he caught?  Do you really think that was the only time?

    Like I said you can start a thread and title it appropriately, have a goodnight 

    the thread is titled RIP Kobe Bryant

    why should a rapist rest in peace?
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • lmckenney24lmckenney24 Posts: 1,018
    Look, I think the point of this thread was to mourn, celebrate,  react to the life of a polarizing athlete. 

    I lived in Boston when Aaron Hernandez died. What he did as a person was horrible and inexcusable. But, his life as an ATHLETE was still viewed in a positive light. Same thing here. Did he make some mistakes, of course...we all do. 

    Go have a fucking beer and relax.
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 14,667
    edited January 2020
    Look, I think the point of this thread was to mourn, celebrate,  react to the life of a polarizing athlete. 

    I lived in Boston when Aaron Hernandez died. What he did as a person was horrible and inexcusable. But, his life as an ATHLETE was still viewed in a positive light. Same thing here. Did he make some mistakes, of course...we all do. 

    Go have a fucking beer and relax.
    What? This isn't like that! Proven murder is different than accused rape! lol, you guys...
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,254
    Look, I think the point of this thread was to mourn, celebrate,  react to the life of a polarizing athlete. 

    I lived in Boston when Aaron Hernandez died. What he did as a person was horrible and inexcusable. But, his life as an ATHLETE was still viewed in a positive light. Same thing here. Did he make some mistakes, of course...we all do. 

    Go have a fucking beer and relax.
    What? This isn't like that! Proven murder is different than accused rape! lol, you guys...
    Agreed... don't compare Kobe and Hernandez..  That shit ain't close. 
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 10,916
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    My thoughts, he made a huge mistake that people in power/ money feel entitled to with no consequences. Probably the first time in his life that he couldn't cover it up as he was a pro from HS. From there, he did reform. Fixed his family, publicly apologized and did do a lot of charity work. Definitely one of the best ever players but questionable morals for half his life. I feel terrible for his wife and surviving children. 
    And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the p****. You can do anything.
    Wait at least a day before you dance on the grave.  Everyone knows your pov.
    And what point of view is that?

    Rapists = bad ?

    That the world is a better place with one less rapist in it? 

    That point of view?
    Evidently you don't believe in contrition or redemption.  Good for you.  

    I believe in redemption

    Remind me again how many days Kobe spent in jail?
    That's cool that you're also happy that three young girls lost their father,  including am infant.  

    If he was in jail instead of on a helicopter he might still be alive
    This thread is to mourn the man & his daughter tragically killed in an accident, if you wanna bash it’s your choice so please start your own thread to bash him ..


    I feel for the daughter, I really do.  She was an innocent victim.

    So was the massage therapist Kobe raped.  She was an innocent victim and someone's daughter as well. 

    If I were a Christian, perhaps I might suggest this was God's way of taking an eye for an eye, but that would be uncouth.

    How many women do you think Kobe raped before he caught?  Do you really think that was the only time?

    Like I said you can start a thread and title it appropriately, have a goodnight 

    the thread is titled RIP Kobe Bryant

    why should a rapist rest in peace?
    you've made your point now numerous times. move on already. 
  • lmckenney24lmckenney24 Posts: 1,018
    Look, I think the point of this thread was to mourn, celebrate,  react to the life of a polarizing athlete. 

    I lived in Boston when Aaron Hernandez died. What he did as a person was horrible and inexcusable. But, his life as an ATHLETE was still viewed in a positive light. Same thing here. Did he make some mistakes, of course...we all do. 

    Go have a fucking beer and relax.
    What? This isn't like that! Proven murder is different than accused rape! 
    Poorly written on my part, so the point wasnt clear. been a long day. 
  • lmckenney24lmckenney24 Posts: 1,018
    mrussel1 said:
    Look, I think the point of this thread was to mourn, celebrate,  react to the life of a polarizing athlete. 

    I lived in Boston when Aaron Hernandez died. What he did as a person was horrible and inexcusable. But, his life as an ATHLETE was still viewed in a positive light. Same thing here. Did he make some mistakes, of course...we all do. 

    Go have a fucking beer and relax.
    What? This isn't like that! Proven murder is different than accused rape! lol, you guys...
    Agreed... don't compare Kobe and Hernandez..  That shit ain't close. 
    Not remotely close. Poor comparison. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,254
    mrussel1 said:
    Look, I think the point of this thread was to mourn, celebrate,  react to the life of a polarizing athlete. 

    I lived in Boston when Aaron Hernandez died. What he did as a person was horrible and inexcusable. But, his life as an ATHLETE was still viewed in a positive light. Same thing here. Did he make some mistakes, of course...we all do. 

    Go have a fucking beer and relax.
    What? This isn't like that! Proven murder is different than accused rape! lol, you guys...
    Agreed... don't compare Kobe and Hernandez..  That shit ain't close. 
    Not remotely close. Poor comparison. 
    No worries.  
  • SeaSea EarthPosts: 2,393
    It’s inappropriate to wish death upon another person. Please don’t do that here or anywhere on the forum.
    Please respect topic integrity. See the Posting Guidelines https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/228366/forum-posting-guidelines
    Thank you



  • cp3iversoncp3iverson Posts: 7,455
    No NBA player ever supported women’s basketball as much as Kobe. Seeing the professional and college stars break down over this is tough.  

    Shocking the number of professional athletes from different sports who are posting thank yous. He mentored a ton of athletes.  I never knew the scope.  I just knew the NBA and WNBA players who he helped. Seems like he was one to go to for the mental pep talks whether you played tennis, soccer, etc.  Mamba mentality was very real
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,254
    No NBA player ever supported women’s basketball as much as Kobe. Seeing the professional and college stars break down over this is tough.  

    Shocking the number of professional athletes from different sports who are posting thank yous. He mentored a ton of athletes.  I never knew the scope.  I just knew the NBA and WNBA players who he helped. Seems like he was one to go to for the mental pep talks whether you played tennis, soccer, etc.  Mamba mentality was very real
    Redemptive behavior. 
  • They’re airing his final game where he went for 60  on ESPN right now. 
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  • Who were the other 7 people that were on the helicopter crash?  The news doesn't mention them...
  • Shaq’s podcast today is worth a listen. Just the big man talking from the heart. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,254
    Who were the other 7 people that were on the helicopter crash?  The news doesn't mention them...
    The Post did a really nice write up about each person.  I can link later if you can't find it. 
  • mrussel1 said:
    Who were the other 7 people that were on the helicopter crash?  The news doesn't mention them...
    The Post did a really nice write up about each person.  I can link later if you can't find it. 
    Finally some newsgroup did this and the Post of all places?
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