The National Football League

F Me In The Brain · January 2020

Interesting question....running QBs need to take hits like RBs but none of us like to see it.

ProFootballTalk : When Patrick Mahomes becomes a running back, will the 49ers treat him like one?

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/23/when-patrick-mahomes-becomes-a-running-back-will-the-49ers-treat-him-like-one/

Ledbetterman10 · January 2020

cdthomas1981 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Moving away from Brown and back to reasonable folks in football, hats off to Eli for great career. I know overall he's average at best. But on the basis of those two Super Bowl runs alone, he's a legend.

Is Eli a Hall of Famer? Or better question, is he deserving of the HOF?

I'm in the camp that he is, but he'll have to wait a long time. I know he's only won half his games and his efficiency passing stats are pretty bad (especially when compared to Roethlisberger and Rivers). But he played 15 years, never missed a start, complied enough volume passing stats to finish top-10 all-time in yards and TDS. But most importantly, won those two Super Bowls. The major difference between him and Jim Plunkett (the only two-time SB winniing QB not in the hall) is that Plunkett was a bust to start and a journeyman that revitalized his career with the Raiders. Eli started on the Giants, made every start, and came out the other end with two rings. That's all a franchise can ask for.

For the 2004 QBs and their HOF chances, I have.....

Roethlisberger - Definitley
Manning - I think so, but it may take a while. Others disagree, which is reasonable.
Rivers - No chance in hell

The Juggler · January 2020

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021252/uploads/editor/or/13ggxxobdun2.png

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Glorified KC · January 2020

F Me In The Brain said:

Interesting question....running QBs need to take hits like RBs but none of us like to see it.

ProFootballTalk : When Patrick Mahomes becomes a running back, will the 49ers treat him like one?
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/23/when-patrick-mahomes-becomes-a-running-back-will-the-49ers-treat-him-like-one/

The Titans certainly didn't!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-6wTj1Haow

Merkin Baller · January 2020

The Juggler said:

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Yeah, Rivers was a better QB in almost every category where you can compare the two, if Eli is in the conversation for the HOF, Rivers should be as well.

& You're 100% right, the two titles are the only reason people are entertaining the HOF conversation for Eli (which is kind of ridiculous considering the Giants D is what won them SB42. They should have split the SB MVP that year for the D Line, they deserved it way more than Eli, but whatever... giving it to the QB was probably easier than splitting it 3 ways).

Ledbetterman10 · January 2020

The Juggler said:

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Oh yeah his regular season numbers are way better than Eli's. The Super Bowls are the trump card though. Without them, it'd be laughable to consider Eli for the HOF. Even with them, he has an uphill battle. As for Rivers, I think he'd have to be like this generation's Marino to get in the hall, and he's not even close to that. People make the comparison sometimes because neither won the Super Bowl, but Marino was amazing in the 80's. Rivers is just another guy of this era. Basically the same regular season stats as Roethlisberger, but with worse playoff stats, and no Super Bowl stats.

I'm not going to deep dive into it but I'd wager a guess that of the three of them Rivers has the worst "situational" stats. Like 4th quarter, 3rd down, etc. Whereas Roethlisberger could suck for the entire game and come through big in the 4th quarter, Rivers seems to have a tendency to play well early on and throw it away at the end.

"No chance" might be a bit of hyperbole. There's a chance for everything. But I'd bet money (like, thousands of dollars) that he never makes the hall of fame.

Glorified KC · January 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

The Juggler said:

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Oh yeah his regular season numbers are way better than Eli's. The Super Bowls are the trump card though. Without them, it'd be laughable to consider Eli for the HOF. Even with them, he has an uphill battle. As for Rivers, I think he'd have to be like this generation's Marino to get in the hall, and he's not even close to that. People make the comparison sometimes because neither won the Super Bowl, but Marino was amazing in the 80's. Rivers is just another guy of this era. Basically the same regular season stats as Roethlisberger, but with worse playoff stats, and no Super Bowl stats.

I'm not going to deep dive into it but I'd wager a guess that of the three of them Rivers has the worst "situational" stats. Like 4th quarter, 3rd down, etc. Whereas Roethlisberger could suck for the entire game and come through big in the 4th quarter, Rivers seems to have a tendency to play well early on and throw it away at the end.

"No chance" might be a bit of hyperbole. There's a chance for everything. But I'd bet money (like, thousands of dollars) that he never makes the hall of fame.

Philip Rivers is definitely a hall of famer in my book, more deserving than Manning. In the two runs to the Super Bowl the Giants had in 2007 and 2011, guess how many times the Giants D gave up more than 20? ZERO! Eight games where he benefited from very good defense.

Glorified KC · January 2020

F Me In The Brain said:

Interesting question....running QBs need to take hits like RBs but none of us like to see it.

ProFootballTalk : When Patrick Mahomes becomes a running back, will the 49ers treat him like one?
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/23/when-patrick-mahomes-becomes-a-running-back-will-the-49ers-treat-him-like-one/

Nice article by Florio and he makes a great point. One thing I believe from Mahomes perspective is that if it weren't the AFC Championship, he probably does go out of bounds. He was wiling to give himself up to try to make a huge play and I don't believe he would have held it against any Titans player if he got laid out once he cut it back toward the middle of the field. I don't think the 49ers are going go to all matador if he ends up in a similar situation. Besides, last year Jimmy G's season ended thanks to a Chiefs defender hitting him near the sideline. I'm sure that will be on some of the 49er defenders minds if that situation comes up.

“You know what? At a certain level I think that — and I want to be careful here because I’m not suggesting that they try to knock him out of the game. That’s not what I’m saying. But at a certain point, you trade the risk of 15 yards, if you can send a message. And football is still a physical, violent game. If you can hit him, even if it’s close to the sideline, even if he’s maybe started into his slide. When the championship is riding on it, I think it’s a different analysis. And yeah we may give up 15 yards or half the distance to the goal line. I mean, that’s the thing, Peter. If someone had blown up Patrick Mahomes inside the five, big deal. If goes from the four to the two. Big deal. So, again, I’m not saying that that should be part of the deliberate effort. But the Super Bowl is riding on it. And if this guy’s gonna think he can run through the defense without any physical consequence, they need to dispel him of that notion the first time he tries.”

Ledbetterman10 · January 2020

cdthomas1981 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

The Juggler said:

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Oh yeah his regular season numbers are way better than Eli's. The Super Bowls are the trump card though. Without them, it'd be laughable to consider Eli for the HOF. Even with them, he has an uphill battle. As for Rivers, I think he'd have to be like this generation's Marino to get in the hall, and he's not even close to that. People make the comparison sometimes because neither won the Super Bowl, but Marino was amazing in the 80's. Rivers is just another guy of this era. Basically the same regular season stats as Roethlisberger, but with worse playoff stats, and no Super Bowl stats.

I'm not going to deep dive into it but I'd wager a guess that of the three of them Rivers has the worst "situational" stats. Like 4th quarter, 3rd down, etc. Whereas Roethlisberger could suck for the entire game and come through big in the 4th quarter, Rivers seems to have a tendency to play well early on and throw it away at the end.

"No chance" might be a bit of hyperbole. There's a chance for everything. But I'd bet money (like, thousands of dollars) that he never makes the hall of fame.

Philip Rivers is definitely a hall of famer in my book, more deserving than Manning. In the two runs to the Super Bowl the Giants had in 2007 and 2011, guess how many times the Giants D gave up more than 20? ZERO! Eight games where he benefited from very good defense.

He's not in mine, but to each their own I guess.

Not sure if this was your intention, but this comes of as a "Manning had a really good team and Rivers didn't" argument. Rivers had some damn good teams in the mid-2000's.

And good defense or not, Eli made plays in those games. And nearly every QB that has ever won the Super Bowl has had a good defense. People remember names like Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith, but no one seems to remember that those Niner and Cowboy teams had GREAT defenses.

I mean, I get it. If you take away the Super Bowls, Eli is as average as they come. But it doesn't work like that. You can't just take them away. But sure, there's holes in Eli's HOF case, as there are in Rivers'. That's why I rank the three 2004 guys the way I do: Roethlisberger as the lock-HOFer, and Eli and Rivers as "Eh...maybe." The more complete resume...

Roethlisberger: Regular seasons stats, one of the highest regular season win percentages, two rings
Rivers: Regular season stats
Eli: Two rings.

The Juggler · January 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

cdthomas1981 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

The Juggler said:

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Oh yeah his regular season numbers are way better than Eli's. The Super Bowls are the trump card though. Without them, it'd be laughable to consider Eli for the HOF. Even with them, he has an uphill battle. As for Rivers, I think he'd have to be like this generation's Marino to get in the hall, and he's not even close to that. People make the comparison sometimes because neither won the Super Bowl, but Marino was amazing in the 80's. Rivers is just another guy of this era. Basically the same regular season stats as Roethlisberger, but with worse playoff stats, and no Super Bowl stats.

I'm not going to deep dive into it but I'd wager a guess that of the three of them Rivers has the worst "situational" stats. Like 4th quarter, 3rd down, etc. Whereas Roethlisberger could suck for the entire game and come through big in the 4th quarter, Rivers seems to have a tendency to play well early on and throw it away at the end.

"No chance" might be a bit of hyperbole. There's a chance for everything. But I'd bet money (like, thousands of dollars) that he never makes the hall of fame.

Philip Rivers is definitely a hall of famer in my book, more deserving than Manning. In the two runs to the Super Bowl the Giants had in 2007 and 2011, guess how many times the Giants D gave up more than 20? ZERO! Eight games where he benefited from very good defense.

He's not in mine, but to each their own I guess.

Not sure if this was your intention, but this comes of as a "Manning had a really good team and Rivers didn't" argument. Rivers had some damn good teams in the mid-2000's.

And good defense or not, Eli made plays in those games. And nearly every QB that has ever won the Super Bowl has had a good defense. People remember names like Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith, but no one seems to remember that those Niner and Cowboy teams had GREAT defenses.

I mean, I get it. If you take away the Super Bowls, Eli is as average as they come. But it doesn't work like that. You can't just take them away. But sure, there's holes in Eli's HOF case, as there are in Rivers'. That's why I rank the three 2004 guys the way I do: Roethlisberger as the lock-HOFer, and Eli and Rivers as "Eh...maybe." The more complete resume...

Roethlisberger: Regular seasons stats, one of the highest regular season win percentages, two rings
Rivers: Regular season stats
Eli: Two rings.

Eli has a better shot at the hall than Rivers.....but Rivers is/was a better quarterback. THIS is the conundrum of Eli Manning's career that is really fascinating!

Ledbetterman10 · January 2020

The Juggler said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

cdthomas1981 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

The Juggler said:

This goes to my point earlier, Ledbetterman. Rivers, no chance? I agree he is a long shot but his numbers are significantly better than Eli's.
More wins
Higher completion percentage
More yards
More touchdowns
Higher rating
46 less interceptions
Higher yards/attempt
And more rushing yards! (ha)

Comparing counting stats for fb's in different eras is worthless. Better to see where they rant among their piers. Most good qbs
over the last twenty years and moving forward are going to rack up crazy yards and tds etc etc etc..

The only reason Eli has a shot at the Hall is because he won two Super Bowls.

Oh yeah his regular season numbers are way better than Eli's. The Super Bowls are the trump card though. Without them, it'd be laughable to consider Eli for the HOF. Even with them, he has an uphill battle. As for Rivers, I think he'd have to be like this generation's Marino to get in the hall, and he's not even close to that. People make the comparison sometimes because neither won the Super Bowl, but Marino was amazing in the 80's. Rivers is just another guy of this era. Basically the same regular season stats as Roethlisberger, but with worse playoff stats, and no Super Bowl stats.

I'm not going to deep dive into it but I'd wager a guess that of the three of them Rivers has the worst "situational" stats. Like 4th quarter, 3rd down, etc. Whereas Roethlisberger could suck for the entire game and come through big in the 4th quarter, Rivers seems to have a tendency to play well early on and throw it away at the end.

"No chance" might be a bit of hyperbole. There's a chance for everything. But I'd bet money (like, thousands of dollars) that he never makes the hall of fame.

Philip Rivers is definitely a hall of famer in my book, more deserving than Manning. In the two runs to the Super Bowl the Giants had in 2007 and 2011, guess how many times the Giants D gave up more than 20? ZERO! Eight games where he benefited from very good defense.

He's not in mine, but to each their own I guess.

Not sure if this was your intention, but this comes of as a "Manning had a really good team and Rivers didn't" argument. Rivers had some damn good teams in the mid-2000's.

And good defense or not, Eli made plays in those games. And nearly every QB that has ever won the Super Bowl has had a good defense. People remember names like Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith, but no one seems to remember that those Niner and Cowboy teams had GREAT defenses.

I mean, I get it. If you take away the Super Bowls, Eli is as average as they come. But it doesn't work like that. You can't just take them away. But sure, there's holes in Eli's HOF case, as there are in Rivers'. That's why I rank the three 2004 guys the way I do: Roethlisberger as the lock-HOFer, and Eli and Rivers as "Eh...maybe." The more complete resume...

Roethlisberger: Regular seasons stats, one of the highest regular season win percentages, two rings
Rivers: Regular season stats
Eli: Two rings.

Eli has a better shot at the hall than Rivers.....but Rivers is/was a better quarterback. THIS is the conundrum of Eli Manning's career that is really fascinating!

I agree. I mean, if I was starting a team from scratch, I guess I'd take Rivers over Eli. But if I had the ball in the 4th quarter of a playoff game down by four, I'd take Eli.

They're BOTH a conundrum.

Poncier · January 2020

Anybody who touts Eli for the HOF better also tout Curt Schilling for the baseball HOF.
Cause if Eli gets in its strictly because of the 2 playoff runs.
Schilling is borderline at best when taking in the regular season, but his playoff success should tip the scales in his favor.

Ledbetterman10 · January 2020

Poncier said:

Anybody who touts Eli for the HOF better also tout Curt Schilling for the baseball HOF.
Cause if Eli gets in its strictly because of the 2 playoff runs.
Schilling is borderline at best when taking in the regular season, but his playoff success should tip the scales in his favor.

I think Schilling has a better case for the baseball HOF than Eli does for the football HOF. I truly believe Schilling is being blackballed simply on the basis of being a douchebag. And he is a douchebag, but that shouldn't matter in HOF voting.

F Me In The Brain · January 2020

cdthomas1981 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Interesting question....running QBs need to take hits like RBs but none of us like to see it.

ProFootballTalk : When Patrick Mahomes becomes a running back, will the 49ers treat him like one?
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/23/when-patrick-mahomes-becomes-a-running-back-will-the-49ers-treat-him-like-one/

Nice article by Florio and he makes a great point. One thing I believe from Mahomes perspective is that if it weren't the AFC Championship, he probably does go out of bounds. He was wiling to give himself up to try to make a huge play and I don't believe he would have held it against any Titans player if he got laid out once he cut it back toward the middle of the field. I don't think the 49ers are going go to all matador if he ends up in a similar situation. Besides, last year Jimmy G's season ended thanks to a Chiefs defender hitting him near the sideline. I'm sure that will be on some of the 49er defenders minds if that situation comes up.

“You know what? At a certain level I think that — and I want to be careful here because I’m not suggesting that they try to knock him out of the game. That’s not what I’m saying. But at a certain point, you trade the risk of 15 yards, if you can send a message. And football is still a physical, violent game. If you can hit him, even if it’s close to the sideline, even if he’s maybe started into his slide. When the championship is riding on it, I think it’s a different analysis. And yeah we may give up 15 yards or half the distance to the goal line. I mean, that’s the thing, Peter. If someone had blown up Patrick Mahomes inside the five, big deal. If goes from the four to the two. Big deal. So, again, I’m not saying that that should be part of the deliberate effort. But the Super Bowl is riding on it. And if this guy’s gonna think he can run through the defense without any physical consequence, they need to dispel him of that notion the first time he tries.”

Yeah, I thought if Jimmy G as well.
I don't want Mahommes targeted ....but if he is a running back then they need to not shy away. You have to be willing to pay the ticket for the ride. (Which I think most guys will be during the SB, but the Eagles are a perfect example of a big hit happening in the first quarter and costing them.
I think Clowney is dirty....but I don't think it gets mentioned if he hits a RB like that)

Poncier · January 2020

cdthomas1981 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Interesting question....running QBs need to take hits like RBs but none of us like to see it.

ProFootballTalk : When Patrick Mahomes becomes a running back, will the 49ers treat him like one?
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/23/when-patrick-mahomes-becomes-a-running-back-will-the-49ers-treat-him-like-one/

Besides, last year Jimmy G's season ended thanks to a Chiefs defender hitting him near the sideline. I'm sure that will be on some of the 49er defenders minds if that situation comes up.

Garoppolo's injury was a non contact injury. It was his left knee, injured it planting to cut back prior to the contact (his left foot is off ground when contact occurs, he goes down after hit and grabs left knee. No Chief is to blame for that one, its all on Jimmy who should have gone out of bounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaFPFCAM-qs

The Juggler · January 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

Poncier said:

Anybody who touts Eli for the HOF better also tout Curt Schilling for the baseball HOF.
Cause if Eli gets in its strictly because of the 2 playoff runs.
Schilling is borderline at best when taking in the regular season, but his playoff success should tip the scales in his favor.

I think Schilling has a better case for the baseball HOF than Eli does for the football HOF. I truly believe Schilling is being blackballed simply on the basis of being a douchebag. And he is a douchebag, but that shouldn't matter in HOF voting.

Yeah that's not a good comparison. Schilling would be in had he not gone off the deep end over the last decade or so...

Glorified KC · January 2020

Poncier said:

cdthomas1981 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Interesting question....running QBs need to take hits like RBs but none of us like to see it.

ProFootballTalk : When Patrick Mahomes becomes a running back, will the 49ers treat him like one?
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/23/when-patrick-mahomes-becomes-a-running-back-will-the-49ers-treat-him-like-one/

Besides, last year Jimmy G's season ended thanks to a Chiefs defender hitting him near the sideline. I'm sure that will be on some of the 49er defenders minds if that situation comes up.

Garoppolo's injury was a non contact injury. It was his left knee, injured it planting to cut back prior to the contact (his left foot is off ground when contact occurs, he goes down after hit and grabs left knee. No Chief is to blame for that one, its all on Jimmy who should have gone out of bounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaFPFCAM-qs

ah that's right, that's why I can't remember who hit him because no one really did.

Jason P · January 2020

I think Peyton is waiting until ESPN offers him 50% ownership before hosting MNF and Booger is a Manning family plant being used to increase his perceived value. genius.