The Democratic Candidates

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Hi! said:

Bernie supporters favor Biden over Warren 26% to 16% for their second choice. I don’t know if it would be a smart play to drop out now and pick Bernie as vp. I think she gets a huge bump just from the media coverage that it would cause, but could be short lived. What if it forces Biden to pick a vp then? Bernie and Warren don’t go after each other because their in the same lane.
”The fact of the matter is”, as Joe likes to say, Biden needs to not be so frantic on the debate stage. Calm, coherent sentences.Probably hard when you’re constantly under attack. 

That's a really interesting stat.  The only explanation I can think of is sexism. Policy wise,  makes no sense. 

It doesn't unless that's the African american vote that tends to heavily prefer the perceived frontrunner. They support Bernie because they got to know him in 16 and aren't willing to go to someone untested like warren.

I really wanted to see a woman do well but with Harris' foolish busing attack and Warren looking foolish with her DNA test, I'm stumped why these two are the dems favorite female candidates. I really don't get this party. 

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Good poll.  Warren still has the Sanders problem.  She's also been quietly reaching out to DNC power brokers to let them know that she is not looking for a political 'revolution'.  She wants to reform the current capitalistic system.  If she's being straightforward, then I'm more sympathetic to her positions, but she needs to get centered soon enough.  If I were her, I'd start going after Biden supporters.  That's the path to victory because I just don't see Sanders dropping out until deep, deep into the primary season, if ever.  Going after Biden supporters means moderating some of her positions on taxation.  

I like the way that sounds about Warren, but shouldn't she be telling us that? Kinda creepy she is sharing her populist side privately with power brokers 

Are both of you referring to this article? What Elizabeth Warren Is Quietly Telling Democratic Insiders https://nyti.ms/2KXeqQ0

She's actually a partisan Dem as opposed to ol' Berns.

A Democrat, trying to win the Democratic primary by appealing to Democrats is....worthy of a news story, I guess.

I think she is being strategic and is thinking ahead. This is not some corrupting or compromising of Warren or her policies.  People seem to lose sight of the fact that she is running for president, and once she has won, if she is going to pass major legislation, she will need just about everyone on the Democratic side to get it done, including establishment figures and moderate Dems.

If she passes even 20% of everything she's promising I'll deem it a huge success.

But I'm deciding whether she'd be a strong general election candidate.

As I see it, despite the good points you raised, she has 2 massive strikes against her:

1. The GOP will use her strong socialist policy beliefs against her. Something the dems have not overcome when the attacks were legit (they weren't with obama).

2. Her response to Trump mocking her DNA test was historically weak. Weak on a Dukakis level. Unfortunately for the dems, attacks like this will be often during the general. 

Re: #1: I personally think everyone is too worried about this. I believe whom ever the nominee will be will get labeled a socialist and ran into the ground regardless. If every Dem campaign doesn't know this by now, then they should just give up.

Re: #2: I think this is all trivial nonsense, sorry not trying to demean your opinion here I'm really not. Clinton ran legitimate slander ads with this Fuckface making fun of the handicapped along with audio of being misogynistic. The people that buy into his shit are already with him. Consistent polls show him losing to pretty much any of the top 3 or 4 candidates. That's not to say that whom ever it is should just coast. They better pound the fucking pavement hard. Additionally, I think whatever the amount of Obama voters in '12 that voted for Fuckface in '16 came back in the midterms, or mostly came back.

Every cycle the outcome of the Presidential General is always super close. Dems should be worried about nothing right now other than getting their candidate that receives the most votes, that's what a primary is for. Fuck everything else. People can say what they will about Howard Dean (his policies were actually really good, but all he's remembered for is the dipshit thing), but saw a quote in a Politico article from him that essentially said, "do you want real change, or who is 'electable' enough to  beat Trump (whatever the fuck that means)"? My concern isn't with electability, I'll worry about that when we get to that point. Biden's wife's platform of talking down to people, that they should vote for her husband for no other reason than the fear that Trump gets re-elected? Please, get out with that nonsense. Gimme substance. To me everyone should vote for the candidate that offers them the greatest substance. And for me it's Elizabeth and not Joe.

Basically, if the Dems do their job correctly - as it was done in the previous two terms before '16 (talking about real campaigning here) - then we shouldn't see a repeat. But whatever, again, I'll hope for the best and expect the worst and just keep knocking on doors in my neighborhood. Oh, and I hope that people have started giving a shit about who serves them, beyond voting for one person every four years. There's an election every year. VOTE.

That's the Warren argument, that the Republicans will call dems socialist no matter what.

That claim comes directly from the Lazy Hillary School of Campaigning and its unknowingly attacking voters ability to decide whether that attack has merit. Trump will certainly be ready to pounce if that's her general election strategy to defend forcing socialist healthcare on us all.

"Geez if they're gonna call me a socialist no matter what I might as well try to convince moderates in purple states to vote to convert nearly 20% of the economy into a socialist system." Damn that's a lazy rebuttal to an accurate trump attack, ala Hillary and ala the Pocahontas dna rebuttal.
...

The bottom line is that to force everyone out of their Blue Cross Blue shield will create a general election firestorm that will make Lock Her Up look like a pebble. 

Lock Her Up didn't become a firestorm because people care about email servers. It did because Hilary was clueless how to defend her decisions and explain herself to the american people honestly.

Trump went after warren almost a year ago on the DNA test and she's countered by apologizing for her decision. 

He boxed her into a corner just like he did to Hillary. 

Winning elections is NOT about the best policy. It is about being able to convince undecideds in swing states that your policy will work in this capitslism loving country and to effectively counter opposition attack.

God help us all if Warren gets the nom.

Where have you heard Warren make an argument in favour of socialism? I haven't, and I've followed her fairly closely. She's been very transparent about being a capitalist and believing in capitalism so it seems to me you're just making up what you want Elizabeth Warren to be saying to diminish her potential. 

As for helping us - god hasn't done shit to date, so why would he or she start now? It'd be nice if we stopped waiting for invisible entities to fix our mistakes and instead took some personal accountability for once in our pathetic and destructive existence. 

I don't think Lex meant the God statement literally. 

Regarding your other point,  she has said she's a capitalist,  however her policies never focus on that. If she latches on to M4A, which effectively eliminates private insurance,  it will be difficult to shake that accusation regardless if what she claims she is.  

Thanks mr. I think you nailed it.

The god help us all was a shout of love and desperation to the beloved Hank Moody ("god hates us all")

If Warren insists on forcing us to give up insurance she will be tagged as a socialist no matter what she claims to be.

It's getting very scary how many are forgetting how effective the trump GOP was at setting the narrative and making attacks stick. 

Let's not help him with 100% socialist policies.

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I don't think Lex meant the God statement literally. 

Regarding your other point,  she has said she's a capitalist,  however her policies never focus on that. If she latches on to M4A, which effectively eliminates private insurance,  it will be difficult to shake that accusation regardless if what she claims she is.  

Thanks mr. I think you nailed it.

The god help us all was a shout of love and desperation to the beloved Hank Moody ("god hates us all")

If Warren insists on forcing us to give up insurance she will be tagged as a socialist no matter what she claims to be.

It's getting very scary how many are forgetting how effective the trump GOP was at setting the narrative and making attacks stick. 

Let's not help him with 100% socialist policies.

Trump and the GOP will label and hammer Biden as an old man losing his mind.

You really shouldn't concern yourself too much with what the GOP is gonna do. The GOP is gonna do what it does whether you like it or not.

There's a big difference between accusing someone of being old, and accusing them of having a plan to raise tax rates to 40% and eliminate private insurance.  No one's going back to Trump if they think he's a douche just because Joe Biden has some gaffs.  People will go back to Trump if they think their taxes are doubling and they have to wait in line for doctors.  

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I don't think Lex meant the God statement literally. 

Regarding your other point,  she has said she's a capitalist,  however her policies never focus on that. If she latches on to M4A, which effectively eliminates private insurance,  it will be difficult to shake that accusation regardless if what she claims she is.  

Thanks mr. I think you nailed it.

The god help us all was a shout of love and desperation to the beloved Hank Moody ("god hates us all")

If Warren insists on forcing us to give up insurance she will be tagged as a socialist no matter what she claims to be.

It's getting very scary how many are forgetting how effective the trump GOP was at setting the narrative and making attacks stick. 

Let's not help him with 100% socialist policies.

Trump and the GOP will label and hammer Biden as an old man losing his mind.

You really shouldn't concern yourself too much with what the GOP is gonna do. The GOP is gonna do what it does whether you like it or not.

There's a big difference between accusing someone of being old, and accusing them of having a plan to raise tax rates to 40% and eliminate private insurance.  No one's going back to Trump if they think he's a douche just because Joe Biden has some gaffs.  People will go back to Trump if they think their taxes are doubling and they have to wait in line for doctors.  

You really don't think the attacks on Hillary's health in 2016 were effective?

No, not really.  The attacks that worked were related to the Comey stuff.  I also think the Bernie thing depressed turnout because the party never really coalesced.  But either way, Trump was an unknown entity in 2016.  Now he has a record he has to defend, so I don't think the calculus is even close to being the same.  

mrussel1 said:

Worthy debate, btw @dignin 

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I don't think Lex meant the God statement literally. 

Regarding your other point,  she has said she's a capitalist,  however her policies never focus on that. If she latches on to M4A, which effectively eliminates private insurance,  it will be difficult to shake that accusation regardless if what she claims she is.  

Thanks mr. I think you nailed it.

The god help us all was a shout of love and desperation to the beloved Hank Moody ("god hates us all")

If Warren insists on forcing us to give up insurance she will be tagged as a socialist no matter what she claims to be.

It's getting very scary how many are forgetting how effective the trump GOP was at setting the narrative and making attacks stick. 

Let's not help him with 100% socialist policies.

Trump and the GOP will label and hammer Biden as an old man losing his mind.

You really shouldn't concern yourself too much with what the GOP is gonna do. The GOP is gonna do what it does whether you like it or not.

There's a big difference between accusing someone of being old, and accusing them of having a plan to raise tax rates to 40% and eliminate private insurance.  No one's going back to Trump if they think he's a douche just because Joe Biden has some gaffs.  People will go back to Trump if they think their taxes are doubling and they have to wait in line for doctors.  

You really don't think the attacks on Hillary's health in 2016 were effective?

No, not really.  The attacks that worked were related to the Comey stuff.  I also think the Bernie thing depressed turnout because the party never really coalesced.  But either way, Trump was an unknown entity in 2016.  Now he has a record he has to defend, so I don't think the calculus is even close to being the same.  

Okay, here's Trump's record then. I tried to take away your health care, and still want to.

That's an easy counter attack any democratic candidate (including Warren) can make, and I think convincingly.

Yes, he tried to kill Obamacare, but 1. it hasn't happened and 2. Obamacare is generally not used by what you would consider swing voters, those in the suburbs of PA, OH, MI, etc.  Most Americans are on private insurance and receive it through work, not the exchange.  Obamacare covered the gap between medicaid users and those with employee based insurance.  That was important to be sure, but when faced with a vote of continuing to strip away Obamacare or going M4A, I think Trump would be happy with that election choice.  He's very vulnerable on healthcare and making the election a referendum on M4A would be exactly the issue he needs to go on the offensive.  

M4A may come to the US one day, but I don't believe it's political wise to make 2020 about that issue. The election must be about Trump and his fitness for office.   

I disagree. I think the eventual Democratic nominee should run on a positive inspirational platform. Something to get people excited and motivated to vote.

I don't think running on a platform about how bad Trump is is going to do that. I think you run the risk of people staying home, just like in 2016.