The Democratic Candidates

Lerxst1992 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Very soothing to listen to Yang

https://youtu.be/xruFPav0x30

Paraphrasing:

"$1000 per month isn't socialism - it's capitalism where income doesn't start at zero. Businesses and consumers do better when we have money to spend"

Soothing? UBI approval polls at 26% while Medicare for all polls at 40%.

You are really hoping for 4 more years?

Source: NPR 7.22.19

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/22/743516166/npr-newshour-marist-poll-americans-not-sold-on-trump-or-democrats

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

OnWis97 said:

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 

Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....

ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.

I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......

OnWis97 said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 

I kinda share that frustration. And there are times when I'd have been less pragmatic.  But right now, the US is as far right as it's been in my lifetime and "owning libs" has an importance I'd never have imagined even ten years ago.  To me, it's not about the philosophies of AOC vs. Biden; it's about getting rid of very dangerous people like Trump and McConnell. We need to get back at least to GWB (second term; post 9/11 honeymoon) level normalcy.  I firmly believe authoritarianism is on the horizon and that has to be stopped now.  Most don't...particularly middle-of-the-roaders that vote "sometimes."  "Terror" scared them into voting for Bush in 2004 and some of the Dems seem bent on allow "socialism" to do it this time.

To some, the response to the awfulness of Trump is to try to be the opposite.  But that sort of ignores why he was elected.  

Admittedly, my call for "pragmatism" runs squarely into the problem of continuing to put it off.  But if there was ever "not the time," it's now.

jeffbr said:

OnWis97 said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 

I kinda share that frustration. And there are times when I'd have been less pragmatic.  But right now, the US is as far right as it's been in my lifetime and "owning libs" has an importance I'd never have imagined even ten years ago.  To me, it's not about the philosophies of AOC vs. Biden; it's about getting rid of very dangerous people like Trump and McConnell. We need to get back at least to GWB (second term; post 9/11 honeymoon) level normalcy.  I firmly believe authoritarianism is on the horizon and that has to be stopped now.  Most don't...particularly middle-of-the-roaders that vote "sometimes."  "Terror" scared them into voting for Bush in 2004 and some of the Dems seem bent on allow "socialism" to do it this time.

To some, the response to the awfulness of Trump is to try to be the opposite.  But that sort of ignores why he was elected.  

Admittedly, my call for "pragmatism" runs squarely into the problem of continuing to put it off.  But if there was ever "not the time," it's now.

Exactly. Far-left progressive ideas may be the right ones in a vacuum. But we have to deal with reality, and you highlighted the current political reality. I'm not interested in a "what's the absolute best, most ideal system" sort of discussions leading into 2020. I'm interested in how we elect a president who is not Trump. That is it. I'll vote for whomever is on the ballot opposite him. The only way that person has a shot is to win the most electoral college votes. The only way that will happen is to appeal to the broadest number of voters. Simple reality.

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 

Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....

ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.

I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......

What is possible/probably depends a lot on how it is framed and how people talk about it. It's not like there is some actual, physical barrier, like a lack of a scientific discovery. It's all based on opinions, and opinions can be changed. All of those who spend time talking about what will never work, what isn't possible, what the voter will not accept, just perpetuate the issue.

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

jeffbr said:

The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:

1. Change vs. more of the same.
2. The economy, stupid
3. Don't forget health care.

If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."

That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 

Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....

ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.

I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......

What is possible/probably depends a lot on how it is framed and how people talk about it. It's not like there is some actual, physical barrier, like a lack of a scientific discovery. It's all based on opinions, and opinions can be changed. All of those who spend time talking about what will never work, what isn't possible, what the voter will not accept, just perpetuate the issue.

take every idea all candidates are proposing, now tell me which ones get past a McConnell led Senate. Or even a Schumer(shudder) led one, what with filibuster firmly in pmace as it should be. Go ahead, I'll wait.

That’s mostly irrelevant, because as you well know, virtually no idea proposed by the Dems will get past a McConnell led Senate. That shouldn’t be the grounds for what ideas are worthwhile. In fact, getting the approval of McConnell and the current GOP almost guarantees it’s a shitty, abusive, soul sucking idea.