The Democratic Candidates

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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,981
    Lerxst1992 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Very soothing to listen to Yang

    https://youtu.be/xruFPav0x30

    Paraphrasing:

    "$1000 per month isn't socialism - it's capitalism where income doesn't start at zero. Businesses and consumers do better when we have money to spend"


    Soothing? UBI approval polls at 26% while Medicare for all polls at 40%.

    You are really hoping for 4 more years?

    Source: NPR 7.22.19

    https://www.npr.org/2019/07/22/743516166/npr-newshour-marist-poll-americans-not-sold-on-trump-or-democrats
    And if UBI is 1k, then by using our brains,  we can guess that inflation will make that 1k worth substantially less very soon. 
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,656
    Lerxst1992 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Very soothing to listen to Yang

    https://youtu.be/xruFPav0x30

    Paraphrasing:

    "$1000 per month isn't socialism - it's capitalism where income doesn't start at zero. Businesses and consumers do better when we have money to spend"


    Soothing? UBI approval polls at 26% while Medicare for all polls at 40%.

    You are really hoping for 4 more years?

    Source: NPR 7.22.19

    https://www.npr.org/2019/07/22/743516166/npr-newshour-marist-poll-americans-not-sold-on-trump-or-democrats
    Where have I said anything about hoping anything?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,696
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
    2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 8,399
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Very soothing to listen to Yang

    https://youtu.be/xruFPav0x30

    Paraphrasing:

    "$1000 per month isn't socialism - it's capitalism where income doesn't start at zero. Businesses and consumers do better when we have money to spend"


    Soothing? UBI approval polls at 26% while Medicare for all polls at 40%.

    You are really hoping for 4 more years?

    Source: NPR 7.22.19

    https://www.npr.org/2019/07/22/743516166/npr-newshour-marist-poll-americans-not-sold-on-trump-or-democrats
    Where have I said anything about hoping anything?


    That's my sarcastic outlook that extremely liberal campaign policies will push independent voters to Trump :=)
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 8,399

    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.

    Preach.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,981
    Steyer has gotten heat today for "buying his campaign".  The guy's wealth doesn't bother me.  He went on MSNBC a bit ago to defend himself, and did well.  I'm intrigued. 
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 45,222
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....
    ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

    so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.


    I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 8,399
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....
    ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

    so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.


    I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......



    This is an important point that LizBernie supporters need to get.

    To pass dramatic changes to our economy and culture there needs to overwhelming demand for it. Big big waves.

    Current polling indicates tepid MFA support, depending how the question is asked. When its explained you will be forced to give up private insurance, taxes go up and wait times increased, support plummets.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....
    ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

    so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.


    I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......


    What is possible/probably depends a lot on how it is framed and how people talk about it. It's not like there is some actual, physical barrier, like a lack of a scientific discovery. It's all based on opinions, and opinions can be changed. All of those who spend time talking about what will never work, what isn't possible, what the voter will not accept, just perpetuate the issue.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,981
    People are just nervous about another McGovern Nixon election. At least I am...
  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,696
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    I kinda share that frustration. And there are times when I'd have been less pragmatic.  But right now, the US is as far right as it's been in my lifetime and "owning libs" has an importance I'd never have imagined even ten years ago.  To me, it's not about the philosophies of AOC vs. Biden; it's about getting rid of very dangerous people like Trump and McConnell. We need to get back at least to GWB (second term; post 9/11 honeymoon) level normalcy.  I firmly believe authoritarianism is on the horizon and that has to be stopped now.  Most don't...particularly middle-of-the-roaders that vote "sometimes."  "Terror" scared them into voting for Bush in 2004 and some of the Dems seem bent on allow "socialism" to do it this time.

    To some, the response to the awfulness of Trump is to try to be the opposite.  But that sort of ignores why he was elected.  

    Admittedly, my call for "pragmatism" runs squarely into the problem of continuing to put it off.  But if there was ever "not the time," it's now.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
    2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    OnWis97 said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    I kinda share that frustration. And there are times when I'd have been less pragmatic.  But right now, the US is as far right as it's been in my lifetime and "owning libs" has an importance I'd never have imagined even ten years ago.  To me, it's not about the philosophies of AOC vs. Biden; it's about getting rid of very dangerous people like Trump and McConnell. We need to get back at least to GWB (second term; post 9/11 honeymoon) level normalcy.  I firmly believe authoritarianism is on the horizon and that has to be stopped now.  Most don't...particularly middle-of-the-roaders that vote "sometimes."  "Terror" scared them into voting for Bush in 2004 and some of the Dems seem bent on allow "socialism" to do it this time.

    To some, the response to the awfulness of Trump is to try to be the opposite.  But that sort of ignores why he was elected.  

    Admittedly, my call for "pragmatism" runs squarely into the problem of continuing to put it off.  But if there was ever "not the time," it's now.
    Exactly. Far-left progressive ideas may be the right ones in a vacuum. But we have to deal with reality, and you highlighted the current political reality. I'm not interested in a "what's the absolute best, most ideal system" sort of discussions leading into 2020. I'm interested in how we elect a president who is not Trump. That is it. I'll vote for whomever is on the ballot opposite him. The only way that person has a shot is to win the most electoral college votes. The only way that will happen is to appeal to the broadest number of voters. Simple reality.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,613
    mrussel1 said:
    People are just nervous about another McGovern Nixon election. At least I am...
    This will not happen again in the near future. We are far too polarized a nation for that. The modern equivalent isn't a Democrat who can't win New York and California, it is a Democrat who can't win Pennsylvania and Michigan. 1972 is a boogieman scenario today. You have as much chance of catching bigfoot as you do seeing an electoral map like this anytime soon. 

    PS: Massachusetts is awesome.



     
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,696
    jeffbr said:
    OnWis97 said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    I kinda share that frustration. And there are times when I'd have been less pragmatic.  But right now, the US is as far right as it's been in my lifetime and "owning libs" has an importance I'd never have imagined even ten years ago.  To me, it's not about the philosophies of AOC vs. Biden; it's about getting rid of very dangerous people like Trump and McConnell. We need to get back at least to GWB (second term; post 9/11 honeymoon) level normalcy.  I firmly believe authoritarianism is on the horizon and that has to be stopped now.  Most don't...particularly middle-of-the-roaders that vote "sometimes."  "Terror" scared them into voting for Bush in 2004 and some of the Dems seem bent on allow "socialism" to do it this time.

    To some, the response to the awfulness of Trump is to try to be the opposite.  But that sort of ignores why he was elected.  

    Admittedly, my call for "pragmatism" runs squarely into the problem of continuing to put it off.  But if there was ever "not the time," it's now.
    Exactly. Far-left progressive ideas may be the right ones in a vacuum. But we have to deal with reality, and you highlighted the current political reality. I'm not interested in a "what's the absolute best, most ideal system" sort of discussions leading into 2020. I'm interested in how we elect a president who is not Trump. That is it. I'll vote for whomever is on the ballot opposite him. The only way that person has a shot is to win the most electoral college votes. The only way that will happen is to appeal to the broadest number of voters. Simple reality.
    Ooh. I get to use one of my favorite cliches!

    I don't want to allow great to be the enemy of good
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
    2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,981
    JimmyV said:
    mrussel1 said:
    People are just nervous about another McGovern Nixon election. At least I am...
    This will not happen again in the near future. We are far too polarized a nation for that. The modern equivalent isn't a Democrat who can't win New York and California, it is a Democrat who can't win Pennsylvania and Michigan. 1972 is a boogieman scenario today. You have as much chance of catching bigfoot as you do seeing an electoral map like this anytime soon. 

    PS: Massachusetts is awesome.



     
    I don't necessarily mean from an electoral count,  rather losing a winnable election because of the policies of McGovern... and Eagleton and his shock therapy.  That didn't help. 
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 45,222
    oftenreading said:
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....
    ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

    so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.


    I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......


    What is possible/probably depends a lot on how it is framed and how people talk about it. It's not like there is some actual, physical barrier, like a lack of a scientific discovery. It's all based on opinions, and opinions can be changed. All of those who spend time talking about what will never work, what isn't possible, what the voter will not accept, just perpetuate the issue.
    take every idea all candidates are proposing, now tell me which ones get past a McConnell led Senate. Or even a Schumer(shudder) led one, what with filibuster firmly in pmace as it should be. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....
    ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

    so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.


    I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......


    What is possible/probably depends a lot on how it is framed and how people talk about it. It's not like there is some actual, physical barrier, like a lack of a scientific discovery. It's all based on opinions, and opinions can be changed. All of those who spend time talking about what will never work, what isn't possible, what the voter will not accept, just perpetuate the issue.
    take every idea all candidates are proposing, now tell me which ones get past a McConnell led Senate. Or even a Schumer(shudder) led one, what with filibuster firmly in pmace as it should be. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    That’s mostly irrelevant, because as you well know, virtually no idea proposed by the Dems will get past a McConnell led Senate. That shouldn’t be the grounds for what ideas are worthwhile. In fact, getting the approval of McConnell and the current GOP almost guarantees it’s a shitty, abusive, soul sucking idea. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 45,222
    oftenreading said:
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    mickeyrat said:
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Dems need to hang James Carville's sign (that hung in Clinton's campaign HQ) in the DNC office and send one to each of the candidates. It was the right formula for beating Bush. Bush had a 90% job performance approval rating in March 1991 after the Kuwait ground war. Forward to August 1992 and his disapproval rating was 64%. Ooops. A prevailing recession will do that. Here's what Carville hung in Clinton Campaign HQ:
    1. Change vs. more of the same.
    2. The economy, stupid
    3. Don't forget health care.
    If the Dems stick to a similar playbook, they can beat Drumpf. But if they try to get complicated or go for pie-in-the-sky promises, who knows. It is now time to really start pounding "The economy, stupid."
    That might be key.  I really wish the party had the ability to come together and say "let's be pragmatic; we need to beat this clown before any of the 'far left vs. moderate left' stuff can even be debated.  So let's attract the people in the middle that are turned off by him and might just vote against him given the way the economy is going."  

    I am on board with some of the "far left's" stuff.  Not all of it. Either way, save that shit for when you have more leverage and come together and take out a wannabe despot. I really believe Elizabeth Warren is the most qualified, but she's probably too into "free stuff" to beat Trump.
    I don’t have a vote in this, but it does still kinda bug me that it seems it’s never the “right time” for progressive policies. Something else always has to be the focus first, and we’ll get to that equality and justice stuff later. 
    Johnson had a huge lift to get civil rights, voting act and the housing act passed. but he had the will to be the bully to get that shit done. since then, change for the better has come incrementally and when it was more than that , later Congresses gutted important legislation like Dodd Frank, Feingold McCain etc.....
    ACA was a shock to the system, one that initially had a public option. just an option that saw huge blowback so it was dropped to get it passed.  It was only possible because all both chambers and the admin were same party. 

    so unless you totally change the makeup of Congress as a whole to have veto proof majorities of far left progressives, you arent likely to see much of anything they currently propose get passed.


    I am more willing to hear and pay attention to whats possible/probable then empty promises......


    What is possible/probably depends a lot on how it is framed and how people talk about it. It's not like there is some actual, physical barrier, like a lack of a scientific discovery. It's all based on opinions, and opinions can be changed. All of those who spend time talking about what will never work, what isn't possible, what the voter will not accept, just perpetuate the issue.
    take every idea all candidates are proposing, now tell me which ones get past a McConnell led Senate. Or even a Schumer(shudder) led one, what with filibuster firmly in pmace as it should be. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    That’s mostly irrelevant, because as you well know, virtually no idea proposed by the Dems will get past a McConnell led Senate. That shouldn’t be the grounds for what ideas are worthwhile. In fact, getting the approval of McConnell and the current GOP almost guarantees it’s a shitty, abusive, soul sucking idea. 
    except all these people are running and claiming this will get done, not just presenting ideas, no matter how worthwhile they may be. And its a lie, they know it, I know it, and unfortunately the younger voters arent cynical enough nor critically thinking enough to know better.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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