The Democratic Candidates

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  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    PJ_Soul said:
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,229
    edited June 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    PJ_Soul said:
    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    Interesting. I don’t blame them at all.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,229
    edited June 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    Interesting. I don’t blame them at all.  
    You seem not to give any kind of shit about how much people are suffering and having their lives ruined because of the US healthcare system. It's bizarre.
    Also, I think you were thinking about basic emergency care situations when you asked that question, so people, whoever they are, don't die on the ER floor? Sure, they get help then and there. Do you not wonder what happens after that, when they are sent the bill, or when they are told they need extensive treatment, and need to stay in the hospital for months or something, or when they need to buy $100,000 worth of drugs to stay alive long term? Are you aware of how terrible that situation becomes for people without good insurance or money, or of how many people die because they can't afford treatment?
    And there is the other part of it - the unreal amount of WORK it takes for people to access healthcare, even with insurance. It's worse than doing your taxes FFS. It is insane. I can't believe you all put up with that shit.

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,086
    edited June 2019
    Yeah. Lets keep arguing for a healthcare system where the main focus is $$$ and which (more) succesful democracies wouldnt go near with a ten feet pole. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,229
    edited June 2019
    Yeah. Lets keep arguing for a healthcare system where the main focus is $$$ and which (more) succesful democracies wouldnt go near with a ten feet pole. 
    No shit. I don't fucking get it. I truly do not understand how anyone with conscience can possibly defend such a system. One where PROFIT is the main goal. It is just insane. That is why I resort to assuming it must be some form of brainwashing. Nothing else makes sense to me. I know Americans don't think they are brainwashed - nobody thinks they're brainwashed when they are, obviously. If they knew it, they wouldn't be brainwashed, lol.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 40,592
    Its not like ambulances have never been re-routed to the "Sisters of Mercy" hospital that primarily serves the poor and indigent because the paitent didn't have health insurance and was turned away from the closer "high end" hospital and died or had their health adversely affected. That's never happened in the greatest country in the world.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    PJ_Soul said:
    You seem not to give any kind of shit about how much people are suffering and having their lives ruined because of the US healthcare system. It's bizarre.
    Also, I think you were thinking about basic emergency care situations when you asked that question, so people, whoever they are, don't die on the ER floor? Sure, they get help then and there. Do you not wonder what happens after that, when they are sent the bill, or when they are told they need extensive treatment, and need to stay in the hospital for months or something, or when they need to buy $100,000 worth of drugs to stay alive long term? Are you aware of how terrible that situation becomes for people without good insurance or money, or of how many people die because they can't afford treatment?
    And there is the other part of it - the unreal amount of WORK it takes for people to access healthcare, even with insurance. It's worse than doing your taxes FFS. It is insane. I can't believe you all put up with that shit.

    That's one hell of a conclusion based on what I said.  Why should a private hospital have to accept everyone when there are plenty of public hospitals?  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,425
    mcgruff10 said:
    That's one hell of a conclusion based on what I said.  Why should a private hospital have to accept everyone when there are plenty of public hospitals?  
    I can't figure out what point you're trying to make. Do you have one?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,229
    edited June 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    That's one hell of a conclusion based on what I said.  Why should a private hospital have to accept everyone when there are plenty of public hospitals?  
    I wasn't talking about only public hospitals. All that happens in all hospitals. Nobody just gets free ongoing healthcare in the US. But why should over 1000 private hospitals be allowed to suck up all that money and buy all those desperately needed doctors??? The private hospital system is a massive drain on the healthcare system for the majority of Americans who can't afford them. And then of course there is the problem of people just not seeing doctors at all because they can't afford to go in in the first place, causing them not to be diagnosed until it's way too late.
    But seriously, why are you ignoring or avoiding the main issues with this topic? I don't understand. You seem to refuse to accept all the problems and misery that the US healthcare system presents. Is it willful ignorance?
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,423
    PJ_Soul said:
    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


  • dignindignin Posts: 9,425
    mrussel1 said:
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    What happens if you receive emergency care and you don't have insurance?
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 40,592
    mrussel1 said:
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Are you sure the "private" one treats everyone, regardless, in an emergency?

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/17/ambulance-diversion-deadly-consequences/2601373002/

    Not the hospital you reference but an example of the widespread issue of private versus public and access to care. even in emergency situations.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,423
    As I've pointed out,  our health issue is related to the people above the Medicaid line,  and the associated cost of of treatment for those people.  They have access to health through Obamacare or private,  but it's the cost that needs to be fixed. It's too large of a percentage of disposable income for too many middle class. 
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    PJ_Soul said:
    You seem not to give any kind of shit about how much people are suffering and having their lives ruined because of the US healthcare system. It's bizarre.
    Also, I think you were thinking about basic emergency care situations when you asked that question, so people, whoever they are, don't die on the ER floor? Sure, they get help then and there. Do you not wonder what happens after that, when they are sent the bill, or when they are told they need extensive treatment, and need to stay in the hospital for months or something, or when they need to buy $100,000 worth of drugs to stay alive long term? Are you aware of how terrible that situation becomes for people without good insurance or money, or of how many people die because they can't afford treatment?
    And there is the other part of it - the unreal amount of WORK it takes for people to access healthcare, even with insurance. It's worse than doing your taxes FFS. It is insane. I can't believe you all put up with that shit.

    It's fucking ridiculous. Unreal amount of work and out of pocket cost it takes to access healthcare. The patient needs to research up front what their out-of-pocket might be. They need to make sure that their doctor is in-network, the hospital performing the work is in-network, and any ancillary services provided are in-network. But even with research there are always surprises. I had my surgery with an in-network surgeon at an in-network hospital but still got a surprise bill from an out-of-network radiologist who did scans while I was there. How was I supposed to know that the in-network hospital would outsource the scans to an out-of-network radiologist? I guess I didn't ask enough specific questions. It sucks that I'm supposed to know all of the questions to ask. So separate from the big surgery bill that I was making payments on I got a different surprise bill for the radiology work. Yay. 
    But I guess most Americans would rather be dead than potentially be labeled "socialists" for wanting a more universal solution to healthcare. We have socialized education, emergency services, infrastructure, etc... provided in this country but gods forbid we take a basic human service more necessary and fundamental than education and talk about making it accessible for everyone.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,086
    edited June 2019
    PJ_Soul said:
    No shit. I don't fucking get it. I truly do not understand how anyone with conscience can possibly defend such a system. One where PROFIT is the main goal. It is just insane. That is why I resort to assuming it must be some form of brainwashing. Nothing else makes sense to me. I know Americans don't think they are brainwashed - nobody thinks they're brainwashed when they are, obviously. If they knew it, they wouldn't be brainwashed, lol.
    They have been continioned to do so. And have never thought about it growing up with all the ”USA USA USA” from all directions - so the shell around them has grown too thick now to break free from and look back clearly. 

    Case in point - even the ”objective” news hosts go all all in on ”the greatest country in the world” myth. Its soviet union but the idol to worship is ”capitalism” and ”patrotism”. 

    Going from ”WE ARE SPECIAL!” to ”man, What a cruel lie all of this was” isnt an easy thing in a cult. 

    Not everyone has the power to break free like ”most charming news person of 2019” Chris Matthews. 
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    dignin said:
    What happens if you receive emergency care and you don't have insurance?
    Bankruptcy. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,229
    edited June 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;) And again, what about all the people who just don't see a doctor, period, because they can't afford to?? Seriously, why are you trying to defend the system? Don't you want a better system??
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,423
    Are you sure the "private" one treats everyone, regardless, in an emergency?

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/17/ambulance-diversion-deadly-consequences/2601373002/

    Not the hospital you reference but an example of the widespread issue of private versus public and access to care. even in emergency situations.
    According to the article,  the diversion is because of overcrowding,  understaffing,  resources.  I didn't see anything about uninsured when skimming the article. 
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,425
    mrussel1 said:
    As I've pointed out,  our health issue is related to the people above the Medicaid line,  and the associated cost of of treatment for those people.  They have access to health through Obamacare or private,  but it's the cost that needs to be fixed. It's too large of a percentage of disposable income for too many middle class. 
    That's a band-aid fix. Just as Obamacare was.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,423
    PJ_Soul said:
    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,425
    jeffbr said:
    Bankruptcy. 
    Yup.

    That doesn't happen here.

    My family has had a particularly bad string of luck when it comes to our health these past three years. My oldest son diagnosed as deaf from a very rare hard to diagnose condition, youngest son with a rare condition that in worst case scenario would require a liver transplant (thankfully he seems fine) but is at high risk, my father had a brain aneurysm, I broke me heel (never broke a bone in my life but in tip top shape now) and a few unexpected trips to the ER because kids gonna be kids.

    Never once did I have to worry about how this was going to hurt me financially or if my kids could even get insurance when they were older because of "pre-existing conditions". Everything else has been stressful enough as it is, I couldn't imagine having to worry about bankrupting my family too.

    For profit healthcare is complete dogshit. And I'm sorry but if anyone says "hey, it works well enough for me so I'm not too worried about anyone else" they sound like a shortsighted selfish prick.


  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    mrussel1 said:
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,086
    dignin said:

    For profit healthcare is complete dogshit. And I'm sorry but if anyone says "hey, it works well enough for me so I'm not too worried about anyone else" they sound like a shortsighted selfish prick.


    One hundred percent. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,423
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I meant to say Medicaid,  not Medicare.  

    I wouldn't say hospital shopping is practical though.  Although im not sure how prevalent it is that hospitals don't take federal insurance.  I haven't personally heard this was a problem here. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,229
    mcgruff10 said:
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    mrussel1 said:
    I meant to say Medicaid,  not Medicare.  

    I wouldn't say hospital shopping is practical though.  Although im not sure how prevalent it is that hospitals don't take federal insurance.  I haven't personally heard this was a problem here. 
    Me either.  I also always get the two confused. I ve never heard of a hospital denying people because they don’t have insurance but like I said, I am not too versed in this topic. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    PJ_Soul said:
    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 40,592
    mcgruff10 said:
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    Maybe thats hard to do when you're suffering a stroke or a heart attack or been in a nasty car accident?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,811
    Maybe thats hard to do when you're suffering a stroke or a heart attack or been in a nasty car accident?
    Pretty sure they wouldn't deny you in an emergency situation unless you have evidence that proves otherwise.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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