bbiggs said:

^ Your mixing his politics with the fact that he wasn’t handed shit and worked hard to get where he’s at. 2 different topics.

Carry on...

PJ_Soul said:

njnancy said:

mace1229 said:

my2hands said:

Some people just really hate white testicles

I really thought all testicles are white, are they not?

Never saw one so I'm not sure, but I'm sure he meant scrotums.

It's always good to know about human anatomy, which is why I'm doing this. Yes indeed, testes are pretty white, lol.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Elzbieta_Czykier/publication/225610064/figure/fig2/AS:644266686685188@1530616556242/Physiological-asymmetry-of-European-bison-testes-Testicles-of-a-10-year-old-culled-bull.png

njnancy said:

benjs said:

OnWis97 said:

I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.

But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental.  It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault.  It's not that black and white.  In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.  

So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority.  A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).

I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly.  He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school.  I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive.  He thinks he did it all by himself, though.  Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky.  And he was.  I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.

And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..."  I'm not even saying that this isn't true.  That's not the point.  The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life.  You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't.  The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct? 

(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college.  While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class.  My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school.  We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not.  But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often.   It's layered and it's nuanced.  Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages.  But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)

Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing.  Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.

I'd highly recommend reading this article on the role luck plays in life. As soon as I started reading what you'd written, I thought of it. The thing is though, I feel that luck can be manufactured or constrained just like anything (and that's where government can if it so desires step in), even though in many cases it's just luck. 

http://nautil.us/issue/44/luck/dont-tell-your-friends-theyre-lucky

Luck and the unknown play a large part in many people's lives. 

I grew up lower middle class, intact family and excelled in school, took out loans for college while working full time in various jobs and excelled in college. I had help from my family as far as a home, food, support, but there were also problems at home and I was lucky enough to have been born with work ethic and smarts and did what I had to in order to get my BA, first in my family to graduate college, and then took a year off so I could 'just' work full time as a waitress and get my driver's license and a car and insurance (on my own) and then took my first career job that would lead to a career in Advertising Research in the City and rose to head of my department working insane hours and at home on weekends It was my career though and I put everything into it.  

I was rewarded with bonuses and allowed to hire more people for our department and my next step within that company would have been VP. I was good at whatever I tried to do and people noticed. And then I got sick out of nowhere. I tried to ignore it for awhile but it became something that made it impossible for me to function as I had always functioned. I was reeling because I went on short term disability with all expectations to return to my position but I didn't get better, I continued to get worse for awhile. I was dealing with something that I had no experience with and it messed me up because I was always able to accomplish what I set my mind to do. 

I also stopped drinking at the same time, because it was a problem that I had to face in order to get better. My husband of a few years left me when I didn't stop drinking in a year (he being a lover of drinking himself). And my father died. So within 2 years, I went from having a straight road of succeeding in whatever I set my mind to no matter what I set out to accomplish to losing my great job and future to a disabling disease, while dealing with getting sober, having my husband leave me, losing my dad, going bankrupt and having my income plummet which, naturally impacted how I lived and what I could do. I did get sober, I learned to live with my disability but was declared permanently disabled by an admin law judge and there were more shoes waiting to drop in my future. And those aren't excuses or blaming, those are facts. 

I hate being disabled, I worked too hard to be in this position, but I didn't get to choose when a hidden disease within my genes decided to pop up and disrupt my entire life.  I have learned all kinds of talents through the years and raised a child with extremely modest means. I have attempted to begin part time work several times and each time an extremely serious situation has occurred which set me back. I am not where I thought I would be at my age, far from it. 

I am not lazy, I was a driven person from as early as I can remember. My disability has changed my ability to be a go-getter. I would still be working as hard as possible in whatever job I had risen to with a nice 401K for my retirement. An abusive partner siphoned the 401K I did have.  I wish that I was living the life that I always imagined. Or was productive in some sort of financially and personally satisfactory way. 

But luck did not work in my favor and my entire life was changed due to something that was completely out of my control. This is what happens to a lot of people who are hard workers. You don't get to choose the hand you're dealt sometimes and it can be devastating.

So lazy is not a word that applies to a lot of people with varying stories about how their working life was changed for the worse. Sometimes life just happens and you deal with it as best you can. Those of you who are working hard and living a good life, I envy you, that was supposed to be me. 

ikiT said:

benjs said:

njnancy said:

benjs said:

OnWis97 said:

I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.

But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental.  It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault.  It's not that black and white.  In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.  

So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority.  A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).

I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly.  He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school.  I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive.  He thinks he did it all by himself, though.  Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky.  And he was.  I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.

And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..."  I'm not even saying that this isn't true.  That's not the point.  The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life.  You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't.  The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct? 

(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college.  While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class.  My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school.  We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not.  But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often.   It's layered and it's nuanced.  Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages.  But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)

Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing.  Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.

I'd highly recommend reading this article on the role luck plays in life. As soon as I started reading what you'd written, I thought of it. The thing is though, I feel that luck can be manufactured or constrained just like anything (and that's where government can if it so desires step in), even though in many cases it's just luck. 

http://nautil.us/issue/44/luck/dont-tell-your-friends-theyre-lucky

Luck and the unknown play a large part in many people's lives. 

I grew up lower middle class, intact family and excelled in school, took out loans for college while working full time in various jobs and excelled in college. I had help from my family as far as a home, food, support, but there were also problems at home and I was lucky enough to have been born with work ethic and smarts and did what I had to in order to get my BA, first in my family to graduate college, and then took a year off so I could 'just' work full time as a waitress and get my driver's license and a car and insurance (on my own) and then took my first career job that would lead to a career in Advertising Research in the City and rose to head of my department working insane hours and at home on weekends It was my career though and I put everything into it.  

I was rewarded with bonuses and allowed to hire more people for our department and my next step within that company would have been VP. I was good at whatever I tried to do and people noticed. And then I got sick out of nowhere. I tried to ignore it for awhile but it became something that made it impossible for me to function as I had always functioned. I was reeling because I went on short term disability with all expectations to return to my position but I didn't get better, I continued to get worse for awhile. I was dealing with something that I had no experience with and it messed me up because I was always able to accomplish what I set my mind to do. 

I also stopped drinking at the same time, because it was a problem that I had to face in order to get better. My husband of a few years left me when I didn't stop drinking in a year (he being a lover of drinking himself). And my father died. So within 2 years, I went from having a straight road of succeeding in whatever I set my mind to no matter what I set out to accomplish to losing my great job and future to a disabling disease, while dealing with getting sober, having my husband leave me, losing my dad, going bankrupt and having my income plummet which, naturally impacted how I lived and what I could do. I did get sober, I learned to live with my disability but was declared permanently disabled by an admin law judge and there were more shoes waiting to drop in my future. And those aren't excuses or blaming, those are facts. 

I hate being disabled, I worked too hard to be in this position, but I didn't get to choose when a hidden disease within my genes decided to pop up and disrupt my entire life.  I have learned all kinds of talents through the years and raised a child with extremely modest means. I have attempted to begin part time work several times and each time an extremely serious situation has occurred which set me back. I am not where I thought I would be at my age, far from it. 

I am not lazy, I was a driven person from as early as I can remember. My disability has changed my ability to be a go-getter. I would still be working as hard as possible in whatever job I had risen to with a nice 401K for my retirement. An abusive partner siphoned the 401K I did have.  I wish that I was living the life that I always imagined. Or was productive in some sort of financially and personally satisfactory way. 

But luck did not work in my favor and my entire life was changed due to something that was completely out of my control. This is what happens to a lot of people who are hard workers. You don't get to choose the hand you're dealt sometimes and it can be devastating.

So lazy is not a word that applies to a lot of people with varying stories about how their working life was changed for the worse. Sometimes life just happens and you deal with it as best you can. Those of you who are working hard and living a good life, I envy you, that was supposed to be me. 

Wow, Nancy. I so admire your tenacity, attitude, acceptance - too many admirable traits to go into, really. I'm so sorry life dealt you these blows, and I hope you still have sources of happiness to help with the tougher days. For what it's worth, I love reading what you share on here - you have amazing insights and I respect your discussion style on here (never rude, always grounded and fair), so thank you for that