Donald Trump

PJPOWER

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

I, for one, outside of high school have always worked under women bosses and was in the minority regarding gender/race in the particular field.  The boss I work under now is a female and a minority.  I didn’t realize I was hired due to my white manliness all along.  Oh, the overwhelming white guiltiness!

it's obviously not 100%. it's just highly likely that at some point in your life, and most likely multiple times, you have experienced it. 

I would really like to know where this "white guilt" saying came from. no one is saying anyone needs to feel guilty about it. just acknowledge it and act accordingly. 

Oh, I totally agree overall and I know I have experienced it to some extent throughout my life, but I get the impression some here think that the only way white men get jobs is “white privilege”.  That is definitely not 100%
I have definitely seen examples of privileged vs not and it is not always about race or gender.  Sometimes it is merely the way someone presents themselves, I have seen people turned away because of tattoos, clothing (not being able to afford nice clothes), piercings, etc in the job market, but never directly saw this happen due specifically to race or gender.  Could just be the market I am in...

bbiggs

HughFreakingDillon said:

bbiggs said:

The dude just explained he’s worked his ass off for everything he’s accomplished. Why the need to shit all over him? He’s self employed. He didn’t get handed a corner office job because he’s white. These negative comments are ridiculous and disgusting, frankly. 

he has worked his ass off. no, he didn't get a corner office because of being white. but he did say he supports trump because of the individual effects of the economy for his own benefit, and he really has no regard for the others that it doesn't affect or affects in a negative way. 

claiming he worked his ass off and others are lazy being the sole reason he is successful and others are not is incorrect. it is a fact that most of us start the race halfway down the track. no one starts their working life self-employed. he has had opportunities 'lazy people' have not. 

the criticism is warranted. 

Right or wrong, a large percentage of voters vote with their pocket book in mind.  That may be looked upon as self-serving, but it doesn’t necessarily mean those people have a complete disregard for everyone else. Some might. Not all. 

mace1229

Just curious, what's wrong with voting for who makes the country better for you?
If everyone did that, wouldn't what is best for the masses always win?
I mean, obviously aside from genocide or something. But just from an economy standpoint, why shouldn't that be the case?

OnWis97

I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.

But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental.  It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault.  It's not that black and white.  In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.  

So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority.  A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).

I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly.  He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school.  I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive.  He thinks he did it all by himself, though.  Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky.  And he was.  I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.

And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..."  I'm not even saying that this isn't true.  That's not the point.  The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life.  You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't.  The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct? 

(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college.  While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class.  My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school.  We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not.  But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often.   It's layered and it's nuanced.  Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages.  But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)

Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing.  Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.

Bentleyspop

I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing.
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the  current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.

Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's  right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.

mrussel1

Bentleyspop said:

I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing.
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the  current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.

Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's  right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.

Absolutely, and I think that it happens far more than one would think.  Look how close the votes are by income level.  You can see that it's not a primary factor, that there are issues much deeper that divide us, more so than income.  

https://www.statista.com/statistics/631244/voter-turnout-of-the-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-income/

bbiggs

Bentleyspop said:

I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing.
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the  current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.

Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's  right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.

Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20.  I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors. 

oftenreading

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

Easy to say when you’re the one getting the benefits of the system. 
 

But what should a white guy do?  Not work hard?  Turn down a promotion?  This is a vexing argument.  I also come from a very poor background.  I worked through college, got an entry level job at a bank (customer service) and took off from there.  Where I started my career, we had a very diverse population, and it was very gay friendly (extremely so for the late 90's).  There were lots of people of all backgrounds that worked hard, but even more that were lazy.  Didn't do OT, didn't look for new opportunities, etc.  I did and it paid off.  I don't think I need to apologize for that.  I have no idea how much being a white male helped, but maybe it did.  That's hard to quantify.  But what does one do?

What do you do? Recognize the reality of the situation and the benefits you’ve accrued with something you had no control over, and be open to the fact that what you’ve experienced isn’t the default. 

I already do that.  I also vote liberal.  I think it was Mace that said the legacy effect is real, and I completely agree with that.  It wasn't my situation since my dad was an immigrant, and died poor, but I can see how that legacy money really makes a difference.  

I didn’t mean it to come across that I think you aren’t. I mean “you” in the general sense. I would hope that everyone would be open enough to recognize the unearned benefits they get. 

And as for that, it would be great if everyone recognized the massive benefits those of us born in Canada or the US, completely due to an accident of birth, compared to billions of other people in the world. 
 

Spiritual_Chaos

bbiggs said:

Bentleyspop said:

I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing.
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the  current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.

Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's  right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.

Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20.  I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors. 

His colors was on display from the getgo.

HughFreakingDillon

bbiggs said:

Bentleyspop said:

I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing.
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the  current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.

Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's  right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.

Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20.  I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors. 

for me personally, judging those would only apply to those that vote for him a second time. I have no issue with someone voting for someone once. as hillary said "let the man govern". and how we have. and he's a fucking disaster. 

bbiggs

^ Agreed. 

Bentleyspop

HughFreakingDillon said:

bbiggs said:

Bentleyspop said:

I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing.
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the  current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.

Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's  right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.

Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20.  I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors. 

for me personally, judging those would only apply to those that vote for him a second time. I have no issue with someone voting for someone once. as hillary said "let the man govern". and how we have. and he's a fucking disaster. 

Why do you feel the need to insult fucking disasters?

benjs

OnWis97 said:

I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.

But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental.  It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault.  It's not that black and white.  In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.  

So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority.  A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).

I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly.  He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school.  I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive.  He thinks he did it all by himself, though.  Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky.  And he was.  I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.

And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..."  I'm not even saying that this isn't true.  That's not the point.  The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life.  You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't.  The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct? 

(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college.  While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class.  My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school.  We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not.  But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often.   It's layered and it's nuanced.  Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages.  But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)

Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing.  Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.

I'd highly recommend reading this article on the role luck plays in life. As soon as I started reading what you'd written, I thought of it. The thing is though, I feel that luck can be manufactured or constrained just like anything (and that's where government can if it so desires step in), even though in many cases it's just luck. 

http://nautil.us/issue/44/luck/dont-tell-your-friends-theyre-lucky

njnancy

benjs said:

OnWis97 said:

I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.

But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental.  It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault.  It's not that black and white.  In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.  

So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority.  A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).

I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly.  He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school.  I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive.  He thinks he did it all by himself, though.  Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky.  And he was.  I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.

And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..."  I'm not even saying that this isn't true.  That's not the point.  The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life.  You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't.  The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct? 

(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college.  While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class.  My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school.  We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not.  But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often.   It's layered and it's nuanced.  Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages.  But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)

Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing.  Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.

I'd highly recommend reading this article on the role luck plays in life. As soon as I started reading what you'd written, I thought of it. The thing is though, I feel that luck can be manufactured or constrained just like anything (and that's where government can if it so desires step in), even though in many cases it's just luck. 

http://nautil.us/issue/44/luck/dont-tell-your-friends-theyre-lucky

Luck and the unknown play a large part in many people's lives. 

I grew up lower middle class, intact family and excelled in school, took out loans for college while working full time in various jobs and excelled in college. I had help from my family as far as a home, food, support, but there were also problems at home and I was lucky enough to have been born with work ethic and smarts and did what I had to in order to get my BA, first in my family to graduate college, and then took a year off so I could 'just' work full time as a waitress and get my driver's license and a car and insurance (on my own) and then took my first career job that would lead to a career in Advertising Research in the City and rose to head of my department working insane hours and at home on weekends It was my career though and I put everything into it.  

I was rewarded with bonuses and allowed to hire more people for our department and my next step within that company would have been VP. I was good at whatever I tried to do and people noticed. And then I got sick out of nowhere. I tried to ignore it for awhile but it became something that made it impossible for me to function as I had always functioned. I was reeling because I went on short term disability with all expectations to return to my position but I didn't get better, I continued to get worse for awhile. I was dealing with something that I had no experience with and it messed me up because I was always able to accomplish what I set my mind to do. 

I also stopped drinking at the same time, because it was a problem that I had to face in order to get better. My husband of a few years left me when I didn't stop drinking in a year (he being a lover of drinking himself). And my father died. So within 2 years, I went from having a straight road of succeeding in whatever I set my mind to no matter what I set out to accomplish to losing my great job and future to a disabling disease, while dealing with getting sober, having my husband leave me, losing my dad, going bankrupt and having my income plummet which, naturally impacted how I lived and what I could do. I did get sober, I learned to live with my disability but was declared permanently disabled by an admin law judge and there were more shoes waiting to drop in my future. And those aren't excuses or blaming, those are facts. 

I hate being disabled, I worked too hard to be in this position, but I didn't get to choose when a hidden disease within my genes decided to pop up and disrupt my entire life.  I have learned all kinds of talents through the years and raised a child with extremely modest means. I have attempted to begin part time work several times and each time an extremely serious situation has occurred which set me back. I am not where I thought I would be at my age, far from it. 

I am not lazy, I was a driven person from as early as I can remember. My disability has changed my ability to be a go-getter. I would still be working as hard as possible in whatever job I had risen to with a nice 401K for my retirement. An abusive partner siphoned the 401K I did have.  I wish that I was living the life that I always imagined. Or was productive in some sort of financially and personally satisfactory way. 

But luck did not work in my favor and my entire life was changed due to something that was completely out of my control. This is what happens to a lot of people who are hard workers. You don't get to choose the hand you're dealt sometimes and it can be devastating.

So lazy is not a word that applies to a lot of people with varying stories about how their working life was changed for the worse. Sometimes life just happens and you deal with it as best you can. Those of you who are working hard and living a good life, I envy you, that was supposed to be me. 

ikiT

bbiggs said:

The dude just explained he’s worked his ass off for everything he’s accomplished. Why the need to shit all over him? He’s self employed. He didn’t get handed a corner office job because he’s white. These negative comments are ridiculous and disgusting, frankly. 

Everything he's accomplished?   He gave his reason for being a VICTIM and a Trump knobslob.    

I rationalize my vote by a good economy.  

That makes you complicit.  

Carry on.

bbiggs

^ Your mixing his politics with the fact that he wasn’t handed shit and worked hard to get where he’s at. 2 different topics.

Carry on...

my2hands

Some people just really hate white testicles

ikiT

And by the way...

Don Trump has WAY LESS to do with "the economy" than anyone gives him credit for.  Phony tax cuts and Tariffs...what a dipshit.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/441071-juan-williams-the-reality-of-the-trump-economy?jwsource=cl

He's MAD full of shit.   Stop defending him.  Just stop.

ikiT

 Things are going really well for me and that’s a good thing.

mace1229

my2hands said:

Some people just really hate white testicles

I really thought all testicles are white, are they not?