Medicare for all

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

I don't think this really is a discussion.

Pretty much all of rest of the developed world are using tax-funded healthcare for a reason.

The US isn't because it's built on greed and a foundation of "me me me... and the flag... then me me me"

Gern Blansten · August 2018

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every government they are allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself. Im done discussing fuck all with you...

My wife owns a small business and our annual income is well under 100,000$.
Monthly insurance premiums are 700$ and the deductible is 6,000$ per person.
I understand that no system works with perfect efficiency, but try to imagine the impact that cost has on a family ON TOP of the taxation rate that could easily supply universal coverage if the stodgy old Reaganomics folks like yourself (again, not your fault) didn't stand in the way on crusted old ideologies that were never practical to begin with.

so at least 10% of your income goes to healthcare....and you likely never use the insurance portion due to the high deductible.

Sounds like a tax to me....except the healthcare costs go to fund CEO bonuses

PJ_Soul · August 2018

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every government they are allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself. Im done discussing fuck all with you...

I never discuss (argue to you because you just don't like to be opposed I guess?) anything for no fucking reason. Not ever. I just happen to totally disagree with most of what you post. I don't care if you have a problem with that. Go ahead and get mad or whatever, or don't reply. It makes no difference to me if you can't handle me.

No, every government is not allowing the system to deteriorate. That may or may not be the case in Ontario, but it isn't currently the case in BC. The BC government is actually improving the system with funding and infrastructure and changes in bureaucracy.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15
Plastic bag, $8
Box of tissues, $8
Gloves, $53
Cup for medicine, $10
Marking pen, $18
Swab, each, $23
Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true. Your hospital bills are itemized like that.

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices? They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards. As someone said, fear of socialism... Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us... The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control... Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China. Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

Yes, you're free to do it, and I'm not stopping you. I'll do the same.

It's not my fault I'm bothering you, I'm simply stating my own opinions just like you are. If you're bothered by that it's all on you - no one is forcing you to take it so personally. I for one am enjoying these discussions.

HesCalledDyer · August 2018

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I don't think this really is a discussion.

Pretty much all of rest of the developed world are using tax-funded healthcare for a reason.

The US isn't because it's built on greed and a foundation of "me me me... and the flag... then me me me"

You forgot guns.

benjs · August 2018

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15
Plastic bag, $8
Box of tissues, $8
Gloves, $53
Cup for medicine, $10
Marking pen, $18
Swab, each, $23
Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true. Your hospital bills are itemized like that.

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices? They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards. As someone said, fear of socialism... Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us... The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control... Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China. Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

I am so confused.

brianlux: Look how expensive things are in American hospitals!
Meltdown: Wow, can things really be this expensive in American hospitals?
PJ_Soul: Yes, things really are this expensive in American hospitals!
Meltdown: Damn, that's a broken system.
rgambs: This is what happens when you put capitalists in charge of hospitals (who benefit from more people getting into hospitals), and run a campaign on the evilness of trying to give basic health care to every citizen
Meltdown: You jerk! Canada's health care is inefficient!
PJ_Soul: Yeah, it is at times, but our citizens don't go bankrupt affording life-saving procedures
Meltdown: I live in a democracy. Fuck off to China

my2hands · August 2018

Fucking commies!!!

Gern Blansten · August 2018

yep....that's why we can't get anywhere either.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15
Plastic bag, $8
Box of tissues, $8
Gloves, $53
Cup for medicine, $10
Marking pen, $18
Swab, each, $23
Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true. Your hospital bills are itemized like that.

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices? They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards. As someone said, fear of socialism... Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us... The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control... Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China. Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

I am so confused.

brianlux: Look how expensive things are in American hospitals!
Meltdown: Wow, can things really be this expensive in American hospitals?
PJ_Soul: Yes, things really are this expensive in American hospitals!
Meltdown: Damn, that's a broken system.
rgambs: This is what happens when you put capitalists in charge of hospitals (who benefit from more people getting into hospitals), and run a campaign on the evilness of trying to give basic health care to every citizen
Meltdown: You jerk! Canada's health care is inefficient!
PJ_Soul: Yeah, it is at times, but our citizens don't go bankrupt affording life-saving procedures
Meltdown: I live in a democracy. Fuck off to China

Meltdowns name checks out.

mace1229 · August 2018

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every government they are allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself. Im done discussing fuck all with you...

My wife owns a small business and our annual income is well under 100,000$.
Monthly insurance premiums are 700$ and the deductible is 6,000$ per person.
I understand that no system works with perfect efficiency, but try to imagine the impact that cost has on a family ON TOP of the taxation rate that could easily supply universal coverage if the stodgy old Reaganomics folks like yourself (again, not your fault) didn't stand in the way on crusted old ideologies that were never practical to begin with.

That very cheap. My “employee contribution” is $800, and that’s on top of the $1000 my employer pays.
and I’m a teacher in a state that’s 20% below average pay while housing costs have skyrocketed here in the last 10 years.
I have 11 years experience and. Masters degree, I just broke the 50k mark for the first time this year. So that is a huge chunk out of my pay, and of course that means I can’t afford to actually use the insurance because the costs to me on much of it is still very high. This form of insurance is completely pointless, we’re paying over 20k a year to insurance just to get ripped off on procedures and medication.

tweedyfanjen · August 2018

I pay less than $100/month premium, $420 deductible and I feel damn lucky. I know the system is wrecked for most, but now that my mom is in her 70's I see how seniors get such a raw deal. She has three insurance policies including Medicare. Three. One just to cover hospital stays. And the cost of her meds still isn't covered entirely. That's tough when you're living off social security. Not to mention my 101 grandmother is in an assisted living home that costs almost $5k/month. Ridiculous.

josevolution · August 2018

Wait a minute Baffoon sold the country on having thee best plan ever for the whole country to be covered , what happened with that ?

Gern Blansten · August 2018

josevolution said:

Wait a minute Baffoon sold the country on having thee best plan ever for the whole country to be covered , what happened with that ?

Apparently there will be some plans released that do not meet the ACA standards but the penalty is gone effective Jan 1.

These plans do NOT cover pre-existing conditions. Remember the old health insurance applications? What a fucking joke.

They will be cheaper but they won't cover shit.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

josevolution said:

Wait a minute Baffoon sold the country on having thee best plan ever for the whole country to be covered , what happened with that ?

Who knew not being a con artist would be so hard.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

Image: https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20374615_1404031789684162_5486253120926532260_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4c5597d5be8f28343e1dbf7abe5bfe4c&oe=5BFF3C4B

cincybearcat · August 2018

I gotta admit, there was a long time I was very against universal health care. I still think it's far from perfect and there will be lots of waste and it will cost me personally probably more than I pay right now. That said it's way better than what we currently have. The #1 worst thing in health care is that insurance companies can not cover pre-existing conditions. That combined with the fact that insurance companies are why the price of health care is so expensive is unbelievable really. So - since the reoublicans had a chance to institute a better program and failed...and since Obamacare was going to fail eventually to (because insurance companies were still part of it)....I'm very much so open to universal healthcare. I still think there is a better solution out there, but I personally don't have the info to know exactly what it is. And it seems no one is able to communicate it...so bring on universal health care.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

cincybearcat said:

I gotta admit, there was a long time I was very against universal health care. I still think it's far from perfect and there will be lots of waste and it will cost me personally probably more than I pay right now. That said it's way better than what we currently have. The #1 worst thing in health care is that insurance companies can not cover pre-existing conditions. That combined with the fact that insurance companies are why the price of health care is so expensive is unbelievable really. So - since the reoublicans had a chance to institute a better program and failed...and since Obamacare was going to fail eventually to (because insurance companies were still part of it)....I'm very much so open to universal healthcare. I still think there is a better solution out there, but I personally don't have the info to know exactly what it is. And it seems no one is able to communicate it...so bring on universal health care.

What is better than everyone chipping in a little, to help out to those who need when they are in need?

It's called being part of a community. Being a mensch. And it has no real setbacks compared to the benefits.

cincybearcat · August 2018

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

I gotta admit, there was a long time I was very against universal health care. I still think it's far from perfect and there will be lots of waste and it will cost me personally probably more than I pay right now. That said it's way better than what we currently have. The #1 worst thing in health care is that insurance companies can not cover pre-existing conditions. That combined with the fact that insurance companies are why the price of health care is so expensive is unbelievable really. So - since the reoublicans had a chance to institute a better program and failed...and since Obamacare was going to fail eventually to (because insurance companies were still part of it)....I'm very much so open to universal healthcare. I still think there is a better solution out there, but I personally don't have the info to know exactly what it is. And it seems no one is able to communicate it...so bring on universal health care.

What is better than everyone chipping in a little, to help out to those who need when they are in need?

It's called being part of a community. Being a mensch. And it has no real setbacks compared to the benefits.

I feel there is likely a very good system out there that would protect pre-existing conditions, cover catastrophic medical issues, and reduce the cost of regular "maintenance" health items.. Providing cost free or reduced for those that can't pay. But not just make everything "free" so that there is waste in the system and long waits for service. I already said I don't know how to set it up myself, don't know enough. And until someone can articulate a system that meets that standard, universal health care seems the next best choice.

rgambs · August 2018

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

I gotta admit, there was a long time I was very against universal health care. I still think it's far from perfect and there will be lots of waste and it will cost me personally probably more than I pay right now. That said it's way better than what we currently have. The #1 worst thing in health care is that insurance companies can not cover pre-existing conditions. That combined with the fact that insurance companies are why the price of health care is so expensive is unbelievable really. So - since the reoublicans had a chance to institute a better program and failed...and since Obamacare was going to fail eventually to (because insurance companies were still part of it)....I'm very much so open to universal healthcare. I still think there is a better solution out there, but I personally don't have the info to know exactly what it is. And it seems no one is able to communicate it...so bring on universal health care.

What is better than everyone chipping in a little, to help out to those who need when they are in need?

It's called being part of a community. Being a mensch. And it has no real setbacks compared to the benefits.

I feel there is likely a very good system out there that would protect pre-existing conditions, cover catastrophic medical issues, and reduce the cost of regular "maintenance" health items.. Providing cost free or reduced for those that can't pay. But not just make everything "free" so that there is waste in the system and long waits for service. I already said I don't know how to set it up myself, don't know enough. And until someone can articulate a system that meets that standard, universal health care seems the next best choice.

I wonder if technology and advanced AI systems will be able to provide exactly what you are looking for. Watson is one of the best diagnostic "minds" on the planet, imagine a cloud computing AI system that could combine medical histories, complaints, physical symptoms and indicators, etc to produce a preliminary diagnosis that is then checked by a doctor who is selected and booked by a similar system which accounts for all the factors that influence access and availability, and then the same type of all encompassing system delivers the treatment at the lowest cost and highest convenience.

Gern Blansten · February 2020

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/2/16/1919769/-John-Oliver-DESTROYED-every-argument-against-M4A-tonight?detail=facebook&fbclid=IwAR018xsaNp_hwwypIuilzBceOq7WeKcwpY2FQs2esb5pbD9irrmxbP0O7gA

Good points....I have been saying for years that we should just slowly decrease the age that we enter Medicare until we are all covered.

i.e. 2021 age 64, 2022 age 62, 2023 age 60, etc.

Phase it in and be done with it.

Medicare for all

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