Medicare for all

Gern Blansten

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/399625-sanders-thanks-koch-brothers-for-accidentally-making-argument-for-medicare

Hilarious....I started seeing articles pop up yesterday about how Bernie's proposal would cost 36T over 10 years, yet the articles didn't mention what we are currently paying.  Those aren't additional costs.  They replace what we are currently spending and there is absolutely no way it wouldn't save money.

And the Koch's study agrees.

brianlux

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Meltdown99

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying out of pocket for health insurance and care down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. And some of the insurance deductibles are insane too, up to tens of thousands. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

Meltdown99

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

That's for sure, and it's not like they don't have plenty of examples to model one by. To make it even more horrifying, the US spends WAY more on healthcare per capita than any other nation, but still has worse health outcomes than any of those nations. It's just endlessly stunning that anybody in the US can defend such a system - there has got to be delusion involved.... Not to mention some outright lying from politicians. Some of them love to spread straight up bullshit lies about other countries' universal healthcare systems in an attempt to make Americans think they should be against such a system in the US.

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

That's for sure, and it's not like they don't have plenty of examples to model one by. To make it even more horrifying, the US spends WAY more on healthcare per capita than any other nation, but still has worse health outcomes than any of those nations. It's just endlessly stunning that anybody in the US can defend such a system - there has got to be delusion involved.... Not to mention some outright lying from politicians. Some of them love to spread straight up bullshit lies about other countries' universal healthcare systems in an attempt to make Americans think they should be against such a system in the US.

Fear of “socialism” explains most of it 

PJ_Soul

Yeah, that's true.... It just defies logic though. How can any person with an IQ over 80 actually think the best healthcare system is for private, for-profit insurance companies to run the show?? When their healthcare is a money-making scheme for corporations (and for politicians - those medical insurance lobbyists know their stuff)? How can they possibly accept a system where their healthcare is determined by people sitting in offices whose only job is to figure out how to spend as little money as possible when deciding how to fund (or not) your medical needs? And where hospitals are busy figuring out how much they can get away with charging for every single tiny little thing, down to each Tylenol tablet and Q-Tip? It's just so fucking dumb...... But besides me I guess sort of brow beating this mindset that baffles me so, this issue also just really really concerns and upsets me. It is such a violation against humanity.

tbergs

PJ_Soul said:

Yeah, that's true.... It just defies logic though. How can any person with an IQ over 80 actually think the best healthcare system is for private, for-profit insurance companies to run the show?? When their healthcare is a money-making scheme for corporations (and for politicians - those medical insurance lobbyists know their stuff)? How can they possibly accept a system where their healthcare is determined by people sitting in offices whose only job is to figure out how to spend as little money as possible when deciding how to fund (or not) your medical needs? And where hospitals are busy figuring out how much they can get away with charging for every single tiny little thing, down to each Tylenol tablet and Q-Tip? It's just so fucking dumb.

And they are often inaccurate on the billing and don't always list the correct itemized charges, especially on births. It's like an insurance jackpot for them. We've had several friends charged for a circumcision, and they had a girl! Someone has a miserable job figuring out all that shit.

Spiritual_Chaos

My brother just got his first baby. I think he and his girlfriend paid 12 dollars for each day they were at the hospital, including food.

PJ_Soul

Spiritual_Chaos said:

My brother just got his first baby. I think he and his girlfriend paid 12 dollars for each day they were at the hospital, including food.

What was the $12 for? Like having a private phone by the bed or something? I know my sister paid maybe $230/day when she had her kids, because she required a totally private suite. What a princess.

Gern Blansten

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

I took a cost accounting class in 1990 where we covered how hospitals assign cost.  It was fucking unbelievable.

If you have had a new hospital built in your area the last 20 years just look in amazement on the wasted cost.  Why do hospitals advertise?  How much does that cost?  Why does each hospital in the county have its own state of the art equipment?  Why don't they share that shit?

There is absolutely no good reason why we put this system on ourselves.

Spiritual_Chaos

PJ_Soul said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

My brother just got his first baby. I think he and his girlfriend paid 12 dollars for each day they were at the hospital, including food.

What was the $12 for? Like having a private phone by the bed or something? I know my sister paid maybe $230/day when she had her kids, because she required a totally private suite. What a princess.

I don't know what it is meant to cover (the actual cost must be a lot higher), but I did see that they by law aren't allowed to charge more than 100 SEK (12 dollars).

"If you are hospitalised, you will be charged a daily fee that by law cannot exceed SEK 100."

rgambs

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

jeffbr

It is a travesty that people die in this country due to lack of medical care. That lack of care may be a result of being uninsured. It may be a result of being insured, but not being able to afford the co-pay, co-insurance, deductible, etc... People go bankrupt due to unforeseen medical expenses. People lose their homes due to medical costs. It is a totally broken system. The Dems and Reps need to get on board. We now are starting to see momentum with Dems forming a caucus in congress, but they won't be able to get anything passed without a majority, so this single-payer system is a non-starter while the current party is in power.
I know I used to be one of those who thought our system was fine. I have no idea how or why I thought that. As PJ_Soul said, we pay more per capita for health care than any other nation. And yet we lag behind every other developed, democratic nation when it comes to health care outcomes. Look at our infant mortality rate compared with other countries in 2010. I can only imagine nearly a decade later, we're even further down the list.



And here's a new story in Newsweek:

U.S. THE MOST DANGEROUS DEVELOPED COUNTRY TO GIVE BIRTH IN: REPORT

This is a result of for-profit insurance companies deciding the fate of someone's medical care. It isn't working. Obamacare, ACA, whatever else, are just derivatives of a completely corrupt and broken system that is not providing adequate care, and costs way too much. It is time that the US get smart about this, and look at how the countries above us are able to do so much better while spending less money. The cry about socialism is tired and boring. A single-payer solution is as socialistic as public roads, public services like fire and police, public education, etc... Why not public healthcare? We could have a world-class system without people spending any more than they currently are - we'd just be paying taxes rather than premiums for our healthcare. Drug prices would come down. Doctor visits would come down. That ridiculous itemized hospital bill would become something displayed in the Smithsonian as a relic of a medieval past.

Meltdown99

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 (or is it 13 - 65??) still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

Meltdown99

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every  government they are  allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.  

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself.  Im done discussing fuck all with you...

rgambs

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every  government they are  allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.  

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself.  Im done discussing fuck all with you...

My wife owns a small business and our annual income is well under 100,000$.
Monthly insurance premiums are 700$ and the deductible is 6,000$ per person.
I understand that no system works with perfect efficiency, but try to imagine the impact that cost has on a family ON TOP of the taxation rate that could easily supply universal coverage if the stodgy old Reaganomics folks like yourself (again, not your fault) didn't stand in the way on crusted old ideologies that were never practical to begin with.

Meltdown99

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China.  Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

oftenreading

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China.  Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

If you don’t want to be bothered by replies, don’t read them. I’d you don’t want anyone to comment on your posts, don’t post them. That’s all the control you get in this situation because, as you point out, you live in a democracy and so does PJSoul and the other posters here. 
 

Spiritual_Chaos

I don't think this really is a discussion.

Pretty much all of rest of the developed world are using tax-funded healthcare for a reason.

The US isn't because it's built on greed and a foundation of "me me me... and the flag... then me me me"

Gern Blansten

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every  government they are  allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.  

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself.  Im done discussing fuck all with you...

My wife owns a small business and our annual income is well under 100,000$.
Monthly insurance premiums are 700$ and the deductible is 6,000$ per person.
I understand that no system works with perfect efficiency, but try to imagine the impact that cost has on a family ON TOP of the taxation rate that could easily supply universal coverage if the stodgy old Reaganomics folks like yourself (again, not your fault) didn't stand in the way on crusted old ideologies that were never practical to begin with.

so at least 10% of your income goes to healthcare....and you likely never use the insurance portion due to the high deductible.

Sounds like a tax to me....except the healthcare costs go to fund CEO bonuses 

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every  government they are  allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.  

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself.  Im done discussing fuck all with you...

I never discuss (argue to you because you just don't like to be opposed I guess?) anything for no fucking reason. Not ever. I just happen to totally disagree with most of what you post. I don't care if you have a problem with that. Go ahead and get mad or whatever, or don't reply. It makes no difference to me if you can't handle me.

No, every government is not allowing the system to deteriorate. That may or may not be the case in Ontario, but it isn't currently the case in BC. The BC government is actually improving the system with funding and infrastructure and changes in bureaucracy.

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China.  Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

Yes, you're free to do it, and I'm not stopping you. I'll do the same.
It's not my fault I'm bothering you, I'm simply stating my own opinions just like you are. If you're bothered by that it's all on you - no one is forcing you to take it so personally. I for one am enjoying these discussions.

HesCalledDyer

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I don't think this really is a discussion.

Pretty much all of rest of the developed world are using tax-funded healthcare for a reason.

The US isn't because it's built on greed and a foundation of "me me me... and the flag... then me me me"

You forgot guns.

benjs

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China.  Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

I am so confused.

brianlux: Look how expensive things are in American hospitals! 
Meltdown: Wow, can things really be this expensive in American hospitals?
PJ_Soul: Yes, things really are this expensive in American hospitals!
Meltdown: Damn, that's a broken system.
rgambs: This is what happens when you put capitalists in charge of hospitals (who benefit from more people getting into hospitals), and run a campaign on the evilness of trying to give basic health care to every citizen
Meltdown: You jerk! Canada's health care is inefficient!
PJ_Soul: Yeah, it is at times, but our citizens don't go bankrupt affording life-saving procedures
Meltdown: I live in a democracy. Fuck off to China

my2hands

Fucking commies!!!

Gern Blansten

yep....that's why we can't get anywhere either.  

Spiritual_Chaos

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Medical cost would go down for the consumer if hospital stay items (just some examples) were adjusted down to a reasonable level:

Tylenol, one pill, $15

Plastic bag, $8

Box of tissues, $8

Gloves, $53

Cup for medicine, $10

Marking pen, $18

Swab, each, $23

Cost of use for overhead light during operations, $93.50

Is that actually true.  Your hospital bills are itemized like that.  

It's true. I see stories about it all the time. I remember an article about how some hospitals charge mothers who just gave birth to hold their newborn baby in the delivery room. The "service" is called "skin-to-skin contact". Absolutely fucked up!!! Even with stories like that aside (of which there are so many), I can't believe Americans tolerate their healthcare system the way they do. Many even defend it!! It's just nuts. I have to assume people have just been brainwashed about it or something. There are people who are seriously hurt or injured in the US who refuse to get medical care because they simply don't have the cash to deal with it. It's just terrible. And when I realized just how much Americans are paying for health insurance down there, I was absolutely flabberghasted. The average annual personal, individual cost for healthcare in the US is at $11,000!!! The average healthcare insurance premium per MONTH is $350 USD. It's absolutely outrageous, and I consider it one massive human rights violation.

How do they justify those prices?  They definitely need a better system...

Obviously our healthcare woes aren't your fault, but we are held back entirely by the same ideology you bring to these boards.  As someone said, fear of socialism...  Distrust of government and a misguided notion that we can make better choices and get better values with our money if the government doesn't take taxes from us...  The seriously foolish notion that the free market can provide human rights without strict control...  Those are the principles keeping us trapped under a heinous and ridiculous system where the same entities which profit from our disease and death are the ones who make our healthcare decisions.

Our Health care system was started by Tommy Douglas in the late 40's and full hospital coverage was brought to us by Paul Martin SR in the 60's and full universal health care was achieved in the late 60's, but since then we have not had an expansion of universal health care ... as a matter of FACT depending on the province you live in many of the service's that may have been covered when I was growing are no longer covered...So before you through out blanket statements maybe do a little research.  Don't get me wrong I appreciate what we have, but I can almost guarantee there needs to be improvement and efficiencies found or more services will cut...

This is a pretty weak reply to a statement that totally rings true. You should have tried to clarify how you balance your general views against the healthcare system you enjoy, rather than just trying to kind of trash the system, lol.

But anyway, yes, we pay for certain things (often covered largely by extended healthcare coverage offered by employers), but we never EVER have to pay for any life-saving treatment, emergency treatment, non-selective surgeries, child birth, abortions, check ups, visits to the family doctor, referred visits to specialists, non-elective scans, all cancer treatment, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. SO much of our healthcare is covered so that nobody is losing their house when they get sick, and so that poor people are put at a disadvantage when it comes to necessary healthcare. My main complaint about what isn't covered is eye care. While any eye injuries or diseases are completely covered, and referrals to optometrists makes the visit free too, adults between 18 and 65 still have to pay for regular eye exams. It's like $80 - $90 usually, and that isn't normally covered by extended coverage either (though eyeglasses prescriptions are, just like most other prescriptions) .... But if that eye doctor finds any issues that require follow-up or additional tests or procedures, all that's free too. Still, eye health is really important, and most eye problems are discovered during an annual visit to the optometrist, and making us pay for that check-up is likely keeping some adults from going regularly.
And yeah, of course, ALL healthcare systems always have room for improvement (waitlists for non-emergent surgeries like knee replacements can get long, for example, and provinces should do better with that (BC is making a good move there thank goodness)). But we're talking about how the US system is specifically heinous for people because it is so far away from those other systems and relies on the free market, which is terrible. That is undeniable.

And another I live in democracy ... in a democracy I am free to question my governments action, and I'm free to criticize their actions as well. If you do not like feel free to move to China.  Now move along and quit fucking bothering me...

I am so confused.

brianlux: Look how expensive things are in American hospitals! 
Meltdown: Wow, can things really be this expensive in American hospitals?
PJ_Soul: Yes, things really are this expensive in American hospitals!
Meltdown: Damn, that's a broken system.
rgambs: This is what happens when you put capitalists in charge of hospitals (who benefit from more people getting into hospitals), and run a campaign on the evilness of trying to give basic health care to every citizen
Meltdown: You jerk! Canada's health care is inefficient!
PJ_Soul: Yeah, it is at times, but our citizens don't go bankrupt affording life-saving procedures
Meltdown: I live in a democracy. Fuck off to China

Meltdowns name checks out.

mace1229

rgambs said:

Meltdown99 said:

I'm not going respond to that unnecessary overly long reply ...

My point being is it seem with every  government they are  allowing the system to deteriorating because of inefficiencies and poor funding.  

You know what, you know that ... you just need to argue for no fucking reason ... now heres a plan go fucking argue with yourself.  Im done discussing fuck all with you...

My wife owns a small business and our annual income is well under 100,000$.
Monthly insurance premiums are 700$ and the deductible is 6,000$ per person.
I understand that no system works with perfect efficiency, but try to imagine the impact that cost has on a family ON TOP of the taxation rate that could easily supply universal coverage if the stodgy old Reaganomics folks like yourself (again, not your fault) didn't stand in the way on crusted old ideologies that were never practical to begin with.

That very cheap. My “employee contribution” is $800, and that’s on top of the $1000 my employer pays.
and I’m a teacher in a state that’s 20% below average pay while housing costs have skyrocketed here in the last 10 years.
I have 11 years experience and. Masters degree, I just broke the 50k mark for the first time this year. So that is a huge chunk out of my pay, and of course that means I can’t afford to actually use the insurance because the costs to me on much of it is still very high. This form of insurance is completely pointless, we’re paying over 20k a year to insurance just to get ripped off on procedures and medication.