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  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    so locking people inside a burning building puts out the fire?

    GENIUS
    Um...what?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,368
    edited June 2018
    European Immigrants went about to systematically destroy every thing great about NA ... As a descendent from immigrants the worst thing to ever happen to First Nations people, the wildlife and absolute Canada the beautiful country they stole from the First Nations people.  Whats worst yet, is why the fuck do First Nations people need to live under laws created by their European conquerers .... make no mistake we are living on STOLEN LAND with more than enough money and resources to make it right with our First Nations peoples.  And JT is full of shit in his empty promises ... cash will fixl a lot of whats wrong with our first nations people.
    ..... That's veering pretty far off topic, no? I'm sure you know that I'm talking about current events in the context of the anti-immigration policies of the Trump administration, and not about the history of Europeans decimating Native populations? I'd like to keep it to the topic of the thread if you don't mind. I do think what you're talking about is a worthwhile discussion, but not in this thread.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    so, in your opinion, a restaurant displaying a "whites only" sign should be legal?
    Yes.  Is it right to do?  No.  But I don't believe in government forcing people to run their private business how it sees fit.

    I also fully support how the market would react.  
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,048
    unsung said:
    Um...what?
    you claimed (or seemed to agree with a claim) that closing the border would create peace in central america. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    Not absolutely but it would be a start.  You'd have to also have an appetite to end the bullshit war on drugs.  You'd have to remove financial incentives for people to come here illegally.
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    PJ_Soul said:
    ..... That's veering pretty far off topic, no? I'm sure you know that I'm talking about current events in the context of the anti-immigration policies of the Trump administration, and not about the history of Europeans decimating Native populations? I'd like to keep it to the topic of the thread if you don't mind. I do think what you're talking about is a worthwhile discussion, but not in this thread.
    No it's not ... the topic is immigration.  You believe immigrants contribute positively.  I do not believe they have.  They brought disease, alcoholism, with their over hunting and farming practices they have put so majestic species at risk of extinction and how many forest did the European immigrant remove for their farms.  Plus immigrants contribute to the over population of our cities...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • LongestRoadLongestRoad Posts: 477
    edited June 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    :lol: Um, yeah, every white American's ancestors were immigrants. Do you seriously think this excludes them from being anti-immigrant now?? Because THAT would be ridiculous.
    And what about my statements are ridiculous? Are you trying to claim that immigrants do not have a positive economic role in America, as you suggested with your little list of "benefits" (and all your other posts about it)?
    You making the statement that I am anti-immigrant is ridiculous for one. I know I know, if you don't agree completely with the liberals views you're a racist. 
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    Some people still haven't figured out the difference between legal and illegal.  It takes time.
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    No it's not ... the topic is immigration.  You believe immigrants contribute positively.  I do not believe they have.  They brought disease, alcoholism, with their over hunting and farming practices they have put so majestic species at risk of extinction and how many forest did the European immigrant remove for their farms.  Plus immigrants contribute to the over population of our cities...
    Why you are criticizing Tumps immigration policy ... we did much, much worse ... we separated the original occupants of Canada and put their children into abusive residential schools...and we have never owned up to that with real compensation, just dummies like Trudeau who continue to apologize but does not really prioritize the problem to get the problems fixed ... ever PM has been that way.  Ridiculous.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,959
    No it's not ... the topic is immigration.  You believe immigrants contribute positively.  I do not believe they have.  They brought disease, alcoholism, with their over hunting and farming practices they have put so majestic species at risk of extinction and how many forest did the European immigrant remove for their farms.  Plus immigrants contribute to the over population of our cities...

    So you think every person in this country's history with the exception of Native Americans have contributed nothing positive? I'm a little confused by your statement. So you're slamming ALL immigrants to this country including the Europeans that immigrated (or invaded, if you like) here in the 1600's?
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    unsung said:
    Yes.  Is it right to do?  No.  But I don't believe in government forcing people to run their private business how it sees fit.

    I also fully support how the market would react.  
    And when the market fully supports it, what then?  
    I guess then it's an Unsung Default Answer: " Oh well, it doesn't hurt me so I don't care who it hurts, as long as my extremist ideology is upheld"
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    So you think every person in this country's history with the exception of Native Americans have contributed nothing positive? I'm a little confused by your statement. So you're slamming ALL immigrants to this country including the Europeans that immigrated (or invaded, if you like) here in the 1600's?
    So you feel good that the Descendants of European immigrants stole this land and and dictate how our First Nations people live ... give your fucking selfish ignorant head a shake.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    So you feel good that the Descendants of European immigrants stole this land and and dictate how our First Nations people live ... give your fucking selfish ignorant head a shake.
    Have you ever been on a First Nation reserve ... I have.  It's despicable that its how we treat our First Nations people.  I will say one thing about First Nations people ... most respect the environment that surrounds them.  Other that the housing and lack of clean water on some of the reserves, their properties are clean and they don't cut every last tree so they can have the perfect manicured yards that seem to be a common theme in the towns and cities occupied by Europeans thieves.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,959
    So you feel good that the Descendants of European immigrants stole this land and and dictate how our First Nations people live ... give your fucking selfish ignorant head a shake.
    Don't fucking put words in my mouth. I was simply asking what exactly you were saying. I didn't say "I feel good" about anything.
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,200
    unsung said:
    Now I hope you can begin to understand my point.  I can't afford a private security guard like Michael Bloomberg and nobody is renting one for me like David Hogg.  I have to ensure my own safety.  When is the DNC going to condemn her comments or are they ok with this harassment?
    We know why Bloomberg needs a security detail. And we know why David Hogg needs a security  detail.
    What is it you are so afraid of?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,048

    I sympathize with first nations people as much as anyone, but seriously, I drive by many reserves on the way to my in law's cottage. they are usually big piles of trash everywhere you look. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    We know why Bloomberg needs a security detail. And we know why David Hogg needs a security  detail.
    What is it you are so afraid of?
    Democrats.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 40,877
    We know why Bloomberg needs a security detail. And we know why David Hogg needs a security  detail.
    What is it you are so afraid of?
    The “other.”
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,368
    edited June 2018
    No it's not ... the topic is immigration.  You believe immigrants contribute positively.  I do not believe they have.  They brought disease, alcoholism, with their over hunting and farming practices they have put so majestic species at risk of extinction and how many forest did the European immigrant remove for their farms.  Plus immigrants contribute to the over population of our cities...
    Kay, well now I think I've made it really clear (well, I did in the first place, but apparently you've chosen to ignore the obvious context in which I was speaking) that I'm talking about the anti-immigration policies happening right now, and modern immigrants coming into North America, and am not talking about immigration of the past that lead to atrocities committed against First Nations. I think this thread was intended for the former and not the latter. I actually think the issue of First Nations and what has been and is done to them is too big and important a topic to discuss in this particular thread - I think that deserves its own thread, where it's not all muddled by the completely different and unrelated situation that everyone else here is talking about.

    I also do not really agree that immigrants contribute to the over population of our cities. There are exactly three cities in all of Canada where one might be able to make that argument, and there are some decent points to be made there. However, I think in reality those cities are not overpopulated at all for major cities. The problem is really that zoning laws and transportation systems in and around those three cities are archaic and don't accommodate a perfectly reasonable population size for cities of that stature.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    edited June 2018
    Don't fucking put words in my mouth. I was simply asking what exactly you were saying. I didn't say "I feel good" about anything.
    This is stolen land in North America ... that's what I'm saying.  No immigrants do not contribute positively in my opinion.  They use up far to many resources, and in Canada most people DO NOT want inhabit a great part of this country because it is the second coldest country on earth, so the immigrants clog up and congest our cities even more.  

    People need to acknowledge our First Nations people ... they should be able to live anywhere in North America tax free, hunt and fish (and barter their catch) anywhere in NA free from licences and limits.  
    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,309
    so, in your opinion, a restaurant displaying a "whites only" sign should be legal?
    HFD - you have such a great way of presenting examples that make people think about what they wrote (and I mean this sincerely)!

    In my opinion, yes, that should be legal. If we hate these behaviours, however, we should exert socioeconomic pressure to correct the social direction of the country, rather than expecting it to govern itself. This means that complacent moderates (including myself) need to wake the fuck up, and involve ourselves more in showing our nation what we're willing to tolerate or not, to create the future we want - otherwise, we risk bearing witness to the one we don't. Stop eating at that restaurant. Put flyers around town to showcase the bigotry the restaurant-owners are responsible for. 

    All of this being said, I'm not 100% on this (nor am I on any topic). I just worry that we are refraining from being social warriors, claiming that the government will tell what is "right or wrong" - with full evidence that they can't discern between the two. Forcing our society to think for itself and showing the upside or downside potential of both might take that scapegoat away.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,368
    People, laws against posting signs saying "whites only" were made for a reason, and I think it shows a shocking amount of ignorance of the fight for civil and human rights that happened during the Jim Crow years for people to actually again believe that laws against this kind of thing are not absolutely necessary. This is crazy talk, and I can barely believe I'm reading it here (from anyone other than unsung).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,959
    This is stolen land in North America ... that's what I'm saying.  No immigrants do not contribute positively in my opinion.  They use up far to many resources, and in Canada most people DO NOT want inhabit a great part of this country because it is the second coldest country on earth, so the immigrants clog up and congest our cities even more.  

    People need to acknowledge our First Nations people ... they should be able to live anywhere in North America tax free, hunt and fish (and barter their catch) anywhere in NA free from licences and limits.  
    Are you a descendant of First Nations people? If so, I could understand your anger. If not, I could still understand your anger, but when you say "immigrants clog up and congest our cities," aren't you one of them?

    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 

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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    edited June 2018
    I sympathize with first nations people as much as anyone, but seriously, I drive by many reserves on the way to my in law's cottage. they are usually big piles of trash everywhere you look. 
    Not the reserves I've been to in Ontario.  And so what if there is trash.  It's their land, yet the politicians  that descendant from European immigrants continue to dictate policy to our first nations people...maybe if Trudeau quit giving 100's of millions to every other country and gave that money tolour First Nations maybe then we can start to make things right...by the way I've been to enough cities to know that people who live in those cities are great a creating trash and littering, and 99.9% of those people are immigrants and descendants of immigrants and yet they come to someone else's land and disrepects this land and destroys it...
    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,368
    edited June 2018
    This is stolen land in North America ... that's what I'm saying.  No immigrants do not contribute positively in my opinion.  They use up far to many resources, and in Canada most people DO NOT want inhabit a great part of this country because it is the second coldest country on earth, so the immigrants clog up and congest our cities even more.  

    People need to acknowledge our First Nations people ... they should be able to live anywhere in North America tax free, hunt and fish (and barter their catch) anywhere in NA free from licences and limits.  
    Well this just means that you're a misinformed modern anti-immigrant kinda guy, just like my crotchety old parents (who is throwing in the unrelated First Nations issue as a red herring as far as I can tell). Yes, immigrants DO contribute positively to the economy and the work force. That's a fact, not an opinion.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,309
    PJ_Soul said:
    People, laws against posting signs saying "whites only" were made for a reason, and I think it shows a shocking amount of ignorance of the fight for civil and human rights that happened during the Jim Crow years for people to actually again believe that laws against this kind of thing are not absolutely necessary. This is crazy talk, and I can barely believe I'm reading it here (from anyone other than unsung).
    My problem is there are two groups I have no faith in: citizens, and government. When governments make mandates, the citizens don't ever come to believe that the mandate was right, division and dissent grow, and you never actually change the psyche of the population. 

    If the governments don't make the mandates, you're absolutely right - the people feel the ability to be outwardly discriminatory to whomever they'd like.

    I guess I'm naive, but I'm hoping for a third option, where the government doesn't provide ethical guidelines (since we're living in a reality that clearly shows we shouldn't expect that), but rather society bears that responsibility. My theory is that without a 'legal' mandate, but rather a social one, it might lead to more buy-in from the population that these progressive goals are noble and necessary.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,048
    Not the reserves I've been to in Ontario.  And so what if there is trash.  It's their land, yet the politicians  that descendant from European immigrants continue to dictate policy to our first nations people...maybe if Trudeau quit giving 100's of millions to every other country and gave that money tolour First Nations maybe then we can start to make things right...by the way I've been to enough cities to know that people who live in those cities are great a creating trash and littering, and 99.9% of those people are immigrants and descendants of immigrants and yet they come to someone else's land and disrepects this land and destroys it...
    of course it is their land and can do so as they wish. I'm just countering your claim that "their properties are clean" and "they respect the environment". 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,566
    Lol you guys need to learn how to read.  I’m certainly not arguing being gay is a choice, I never said that.  I’m also not saying folks aren’t born gay.  The comment that being gay is like a person’s skin color or gender is false.  Both of those are chromosome/geneticly decided outcomes, gay/straight is not nor has there been anythibg discovered.  It’s all in the wording, but to compare skin color and gender to your sexual preference is outlandish.
    Did you bother to read the New Science thread that was posted right after you made your statement?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,566
    unsung said:
    Yes.  Is it right to do?  No.  But I don't believe in government forcing people to run their private business how it sees fit.

    I also fully support how the market would react.  
    Except in this country, we had a little thing called Jim Crow.  It's too bad people's racial beliefs aren't directly affiliated with laissez-faire capitalism, otherwise your suggestion might work.  But unfortunately, in the real world, laissez-faire capitalism fails because of the corruption of man.  This is the same reason why the Civil Rights Act was necessary, along with Brown v Board.  History is a better predictor of events than an economic philosophy.  
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well this just means that you're a misinformed modern anti-immigrant kinda guy, just like my crotchety old parents (who is throwing in the unrelated First Nations issue as a red herring as far as I can tell). Yes, immigrants DO contribute positively to the economy and the work force. That's a fact, not an opinion.
    You are mis informed ... YOU and every European immigrant or descendent of an immigrant are stolen land ... and those politicians that descend from europeans will not make it right....so quit accusing people of SOMETHING they are not....
    Give Peas A Chance…
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