Kaepernick

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Is it wrong to respect the handful of players who were taking a knee prior to this weekend, but laugh at all the bandwagon jumpers who have miraculously discovered their social consciences because they feel it's safe to protest the sitting president (but screw solidarity on the police brutality issue)? Personally I'm glad to see the backlash against players and teams (though in today's biased media world, it's difficult to actually gauge how widespread these protests are).

I tried watching Colbert's opening monologue and the man is simply insufferable in his disdain for Trump, and no longer cares about presenting the truth if he can make Trump into a white hood wearing Nazi.  Our media here north of the border isn't much better either.

I personally see absolutely NOTHING wrong with people showing support for a cause that some other people started. That is how it always works. People see what others are doing, think about that issue, and realize that they really support what they're saying so they get on board too. I think that is a positive thing, not something to laugh at. If people didn't do that, protest would never lead to anything. And I think it's dismissive to say that these people "miraculously discovered their social consciences". You have no idea what the beliefs of those people are, or what they've done otherwise to voice those views or take action outside of this particular display of protest. And for those who haven't done anything... it is a good thing if they were inspired to think more about these issues because of what others did. We don't come out of the womb with our views. Every day is a new opportunity to develop our beliefs and join causes that we weren't very aware of before.

I get what you're saying, and I trust you realize that what you're saying applies equally to both sides of the aisle, right?  I didn't agree with Kaepernick when this first started, but didn't begrudge him (and those that joined him) their rights to free expression or protest.  What I'm questioning now is the motivation of all the Johnny-come-latelies.  Are they truly protesting police brutality, or are they protesting Trump?  All the comments I've seen from various athletes show me that they're protesting Trump.  And doing these protests during the Canadian national anthem at CFL games is just downright silly (if the American anthem was played at these games (given how many U.S. players there are), that would be the time).

I think some are protesting both, and some maybe Trump. Both are completely valid things to protest IMO. I don't think that CFL thing is silly at all - what's silly about showing support and solidarity for a cause or for people with whom they know?? You know a ton of Americans play for the CFL, right? I really don't understand why you are being so negatively judgemental about it all.

For me the silliness is "protesting" during the anthem of a country that certainly isn't facing this issue (police brutality, if we assume the purest of motives, though you're likely correct, there are some protesting both) to the same degree as south of the border (despite what BLM-Toronto say).  If they wanted to show solidarity with U.S. players, why couldn't they arrange to be at the NFL games to join in the protest?  I'm just spitballing I admit, and as I type I realize I'd have more respect if the CFL players chose to do the "selfie-knee", instead of protesting during "my" anthem.  That said, we do allow for such things under our own Charter Of Rights And Freedoms, so it's really only my personal sensibilities that are bothered (though I suspect I'm far from alone on this point).

I guess you say "negatively judgmental," I admit I'm being cynical more than anything.  Potatoes, patatas, lol.

It's a symbolic display of solidarity for their friends and past/future teammates in the most public venue they are ever in. I seriously don't understand how anyone could think that's silly.

That may be fine and dandy, but where does it end?  There's basketball players who intend some sort of protest (big coverage of the Raptors players' reactions here yesterday).  Why don't European football (soccer) players all take a knee too?  Will cricket players take a knee too?  How will NHLers choose to join in the protest?  That's where it's really becoming silly for me, I'm sorry if that offends or bothers others, but I think there's a saying about opinions, lol.

Yes indeed, why not? I am still not clear on why you would mind if all of them did it. I don't feel like you have come close to actually explaining why you think it's silly. I mean, you keep saying that, but I still don't really get why. Are you perhaps not aware of the impact such acts have on the wider population?

I'm aware that these protests are (as Hugh mentioned) raising the profile of the original protests, but the message is being lost to an extent, now that taking a knee now also symbolizes protesting Trump's comments about the knee-takers.  However, it's not necessarily affecting everyone the same way.  To touch on your earlier point, I had been silent about the initial protests even though I thought they were in poor taste, however now I feel compelled to speak out in some degree in large part because of the largely one-sided coverage I'm seeing.
Protesting one country during another country's anthem will always be disrespectful (silly) to me.  Do we now start protesting against the Syrian or Russian governments when God Save The Queen or the Marseilleise (sorry for incorrect spelling) is played at sporting events?  There's a direct link when these protests are done during the Star Spangled Banner that I can understand, but when it's done during the Canadian anthem (at a game in Canada) I see a big disconnect.  I hope this will suffice as clarification as to where I'm coming from on this.

I agree the message is being lost, but because of fucking Trump and his minions. However, there are plenty of people steering folks back to the original message, so I think it's all good. Plus, I think the conversation about what nationalism and patriotism really is all about is also an important subject that is now being widely debated in America. Nothing wrong with that either. (and I understand what you're saying, but I obviously just do not think there is a disconnect at all with the CFL thing - I think it makes perfect sense).
I'm not sure what you mean by one-sided coverage. I mean... I think it's pretty obvious to the majority of people who is on the right side of history in this debate. I don't feel bad for those who are on the wrong side. I'm just glad it's a minority. I'm sure if you look for media coverage that is against this and totally outraged by the so-called disrespect this righteous protest displays, I'm sure it would only take a very quick google search. Or just check out Trump's twitter feed.

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Is it wrong to respect the handful of players who were taking a knee prior to this weekend, but laugh at all the bandwagon jumpers who have miraculously discovered their social consciences because they feel it's safe to protest the sitting president (but screw solidarity on the police brutality issue)? Personally I'm glad to see the backlash against players and teams (though in today's biased media world, it's difficult to actually gauge how widespread these protests are).

I tried watching Colbert's opening monologue and the man is simply insufferable in his disdain for Trump, and no longer cares about presenting the truth if he can make Trump into a white hood wearing Nazi.  Our media here north of the border isn't much better either.

I personally see absolutely NOTHING wrong with people showing support for a cause that some other people started. That is how it always works. People see what others are doing, think about that issue, and realize that they really support what they're saying so they get on board too. I think that is a positive thing, not something to laugh at. If people didn't do that, protest would never lead to anything. And I think it's dismissive to say that these people "miraculously discovered their social consciences". You have no idea what the beliefs of those people are, or what they've done otherwise to voice those views or take action outside of this particular display of protest. And for those who haven't done anything... it is a good thing if they were inspired to think more about these issues because of what others did. We don't come out of the womb with our views. Every day is a new opportunity to develop our beliefs and join causes that we weren't very aware of before.

I get what you're saying, and I trust you realize that what you're saying applies equally to both sides of the aisle, right?  I didn't agree with Kaepernick when this first started, but didn't begrudge him (and those that joined him) their rights to free expression or protest.  What I'm questioning now is the motivation of all the Johnny-come-latelies.  Are they truly protesting police brutality, or are they protesting Trump?  All the comments I've seen from various athletes show me that they're protesting Trump.  And doing these protests during the Canadian national anthem at CFL games is just downright silly (if the American anthem was played at these games (given how many U.S. players there are), that would be the time).

I think some are protesting both, and some maybe Trump. Both are completely valid things to protest IMO. I don't think that CFL thing is silly at all - what's silly about showing support and solidarity for a cause or for people with whom they know?? You know a ton of Americans play for the CFL, right? I really don't understand why you are being so negatively judgemental about it all.

For me the silliness is "protesting" during the anthem of a country that certainly isn't facing this issue (police brutality, if we assume the purest of motives, though you're likely correct, there are some protesting both) to the same degree as south of the border (despite what BLM-Toronto say).  If they wanted to show solidarity with U.S. players, why couldn't they arrange to be at the NFL games to join in the protest?  I'm just spitballing I admit, and as I type I realize I'd have more respect if the CFL players chose to do the "selfie-knee", instead of protesting during "my" anthem.  That said, we do allow for such things under our own Charter Of Rights And Freedoms, so it's really only my personal sensibilities that are bothered (though I suspect I'm far from alone on this point).

I guess you say "negatively judgmental," I admit I'm being cynical more than anything.  Potatoes, patatas, lol.

It's a symbolic display of solidarity for their friends and past/future teammates in the most public venue they are ever in. I seriously don't understand how anyone could think that's silly.

That may be fine and dandy, but where does it end?  There's basketball players who intend some sort of protest (big coverage of the Raptors players' reactions here yesterday).  Why don't European football (soccer) players all take a knee too?  Will cricket players take a knee too?  How will NHLers choose to join in the protest?  That's where it's really becoming silly for me, I'm sorry if that offends or bothers others, but I think there's a saying about opinions, lol.

Yes indeed, why not? I am still not clear on why you would mind if all of them did it. I don't feel like you have come close to actually explaining why you think it's silly. I mean, you keep saying that, but I still don't really get why. Are you perhaps not aware of the impact such acts have on the wider population?

I'm aware that these protests are (as Hugh mentioned) raising the profile of the original protests, but the message is being lost to an extent, now that taking a knee now also symbolizes protesting Trump's comments about the knee-takers.  However, it's not necessarily affecting everyone the same way.  To touch on your earlier point, I had been silent about the initial protests even though I thought they were in poor taste, however now I feel compelled to speak out in some degree in large part because of the largely one-sided coverage I'm seeing.
Protesting one country during another country's anthem will always be disrespectful (silly) to me.  Do we now start protesting against the Syrian or Russian governments when God Save The Queen or the Marseilleise (sorry for incorrect spelling) is played at sporting events?  There's a direct link when these protests are done during the Star Spangled Banner that I can understand, but when it's done during the Canadian anthem (at a game in Canada) I see a big disconnect.  I hope this will suffice as clarification as to where I'm coming from on this.

I see what you mean, but there isn't a disconnect, since many of those players are americans, grew up in america, know exactly what these protests are about first-hand. 

CFL players are basically just saying "we're with you", and we all know they aren't protesting the canadian anthem because of canadian issues. Canada and the US are so intertwined culturally, it's easy for me to understand why they'd join in. 

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree the message is being lost, but because of fucking Trump and his minions. However, there are plenty of people steering folks back to the original message, so I think it's all good. Plus, I think the conversation about what nationalism and patriotism really is all about is also an important subject that is now being widely debated in America. Nothing wrong with that either. (and I understand what you're saying, but I obviously just do not think there is a disconnect at all with the CFL thing - I think it makes perfect sense).
I'm not sure what you mean by one-sided coverage. I mean... I think it's pretty obvious to the majority of people who is on the right side of history in this debate. I don't feel bad for those who are on the wrong side. I'm just glad it's a minority. I'm sure if you look for media coverage that is against this and totally outraged by the so-called disrespect this righteous protest, I'm sure it would only take a very quick google search. Or just check out Trump's twitter feed.

I need to sign off for awhile, but I just want to mention that what I've bolded is a potentially dangerous way to think, in my opinion, because it implies a certain dismissiveness to the other side of the discussion.  For me it's along the lines of the mentality that it's ok to punch a Nazi.  It starts us all down a slippery slope.

Part of why I jumped in here is to try and gain better understanding of what's going on here, even knowing I fall in the minority on this specific forum and likely won't agree with the majority opinion.  I think I do understand a bit better (thanks to everyone for your insights), even if my song remains the same, so to speak, lol.

It is not dangerous to strongly disagree with a viewpoint. I'm not dismissive of at all of the other side. If I were, I wouldn't care so much about this topic. I very adamantly think they're wrong though. And there is nothing wrong with that. I also do 100% think it's okay to punch a Nazi. It's also okay to punch a pedophile (i mean morally okay - obviously it's not legally okay). I am not one for the slippery slope theory. It tends to defy the concept of common sense. I am pro-common sense. Logical, moral people are capable of drawing lines where they belong.

PJ_Soul said:

I agree the message is being lost, but because of fucking Trump and his minions. However, there are plenty of people steering folks back to the original message, so I think it's all good. Plus, I think the conversation about what nationalism and patriotism really is all about is also an important subject that is now being widely debated in America. Nothing wrong with that either. (and I understand what you're saying, but I obviously just do not think there is a disconnect at all with the CFL thing - I think it makes perfect sense).
I'm not sure what you mean by one-sided coverage. I mean... I think it's pretty obvious to the majority of people who is on the right side of history in this debate. I don't feel bad for those who are on the wrong side. I'm just glad it's a minority. I'm sure if you look for media coverage that is against this and totally outraged by the so-called disrespect this righteous protest displays, I'm sure it would only take a very quick google search. Or just check out Trump's twitter feed.

Are  you sure about that?  I think most people stand behind President Trump.  It'll be interesting to see his popularity level in a few weeks...I would not be surprised if it's north of 50%.  This issue is all emotion for most people.  Those old enough might remember George Bush the First's "Family Values" speech.  It was every bit as out of the element of his job as this is to Trump's.  But Americans ate it up...for a little while anyway.

All the kneeling in the world isn't going to make an immediate change, but it raises awareness. If someone kneels once to show they support it, do they need to keep kneeling until some goal is achieved or is doing it once enough to make the point that they support it now and moving forward even if they don't make the overt action again? I think this is where a lot of people are getting hung up. Just because no one kneeled before this and may never kneel again, doesn't mean they aren't fighting for equality in other ways.

I do also think that dots are being connected that don't exist; i.e. the SOB comment. I just viewed it as what it was, an inappropriate, stupid and poorly stated opinion on the matter. Making it in to a racist statement is stretching it, but is being done because of everything in his past repertoire of commentary.

OnWis97 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree the message is being lost, but because of fucking Trump and his minions. However, there are plenty of people steering folks back to the original message, so I think it's all good. Plus, I think the conversation about what nationalism and patriotism really is all about is also an important subject that is now being widely debated in America. Nothing wrong with that either. (and I understand what you're saying, but I obviously just do not think there is a disconnect at all with the CFL thing - I think it makes perfect sense).
I'm not sure what you mean by one-sided coverage. I mean... I think it's pretty obvious to the majority of people who is on the right side of history in this debate. I don't feel bad for those who are on the wrong side. I'm just glad it's a minority. I'm sure if you look for media coverage that is against this and totally outraged by the so-called disrespect this righteous protest displays, I'm sure it would only take a very quick google search. Or just check out Trump's twitter feed.

Are  you sure about that?  I think most people stand behind President Trump.  It'll be interesting to see his popularity level in a few weeks...I would not be surprised if it's north of 50%.  This issue is all emotion for most people.  Those old enough might remember George Bush the First's "Family Values" speech.  It was every bit as out of the element of his job as this is to Trump's.  But Americans ate it up...for a little while anyway.

Huh? You think most people stand behind President Trump? Okie dokie, lol. I see no point in even bothering to debate a fabrication of that magnitude. You may as well have just argued that grass is made of concrete.

PJ_Soul said:

OnWis97 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree the message is being lost, but because of fucking Trump and his minions. However, there are plenty of people steering folks back to the original message, so I think it's all good. Plus, I think the conversation about what nationalism and patriotism really is all about is also an important subject that is now being widely debated in America. Nothing wrong with that either. (and I understand what you're saying, but I obviously just do not think there is a disconnect at all with the CFL thing - I think it makes perfect sense).
I'm not sure what you mean by one-sided coverage. I mean... I think it's pretty obvious to the majority of people who is on the right side of history in this debate. I don't feel bad for those who are on the wrong side. I'm just glad it's a minority. I'm sure if you look for media coverage that is against this and totally outraged by the so-called disrespect this righteous protest displays, I'm sure it would only take a very quick google search. Or just check out Trump's twitter feed.

Are  you sure about that?  I think most people stand behind President Trump.  It'll be interesting to see his popularity level in a few weeks...I would not be surprised if it's north of 50%.  This issue is all emotion for most people.  Those old enough might remember George Bush the First's "Family Values" speech.  It was every bit as out of the element of his job as this is to Trump's.  But Americans ate it up...for a little while anyway.

Huh? You think most people stand behind President Trump? Okie dokie, lol. I see no point in even bothering to debate a fabrication of that magnitude. You may as well have just argued that grass is made of concrete.

I haven't heard or seen anything to contradict the above statement.

As a person who thinks football is silly, and doesn’t like president trump, I think kneeling during the anthem is gross. It seems like trump baited football players, and now they all look like disrespectful ass hats. 

riley540 said:

As a person who thinks football is silly, and doesn’t like president trump, I think kneeling during the anthem is gross. It seems like trump baited football players, and now they all look like disrespectful ass hats. 

I found it silly that the president spent the better part of 3 days tweeting, speaking and publicly addressing players kneeling during the anthem, but has yet to make one remark about the importance of ending racism, injustice and inequality in this country.

Trump's rallying cry:

Honor the flag!
Fuck the people!
Stand and hail!
Minorities in jail!
Patriots, freedom fighters!
SOB's, incitors!