The Vietnam War on PBS

brianlux said:

benjs said:

brianlux said:

brianlux said:

CM189191 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

If you're not watching it, you should.

This is true. Watch. Deja vu. American ego on full display. 

American ego?  Maybe American Military Industrial Complex imperialist ego, but this was not a war that was popular with the American public. Not at all.   Some folks were gung-ho, yes, but most, no.  I know a guy was a typical gung-ho young American who went into the service and into that war with all sorts of patriotic aspirations but came back from Nam with a gut load of scars as well as a head load of psychological scarring.  There were many like him.*  The rest went because they were inducted and forced to go.  I would not describe that war as quintessentially American ego.

*I was lucky.  I only got as far as the physical at the cattle herding recruiting station in Oakland then given a number and watched my turn grow closer and closer.  I was two or three numbers out of 365 away from getting called up when the war ended.  Sheer dumb luck.

My dad was several more numbers away, but moved to Canada before then. To this day I'm still not sure whether that as a draft-dodging attempt, or a move to be with family that had all moved here even before the war. In any case, he was a photographer for his college and still gets choked up hearing songs like Ohio. Being in Vietnam together as a family a few years back was a visibly traumatic experience for him. 

I considered moving to Canada myself but I had no connections and Canada was beginning to strongly discourage and make very difficult immigration from the U.S.

tempo_n_groove said:

I'd be interested.  Thanks.

@brianlux did you ever read "Chickenhawk"?

No, have not.  I've seen it come through the store several times.  I might check it out.  What did you like (or dislike) about it?

First account details of a Huey pilot in Vietnam.  It's a very good read.

I've watched the first two episodes and have others to catch up to. So I'm only up to the backstory and the first few years, but it's very good

cp3iverson said:

Very sad stuff. My dad dodged it.  Minorities didnt exactly get preferential treatment in the jungle so im glad he did.  Much respect to the guys who had to go tho.  Very unnecessary and the ones who came home were treated like shit by their own generation. 

Yep, minorities got royally screwed during the Vietnam war, especially blacks.  And yes, when they came home they did get treated like shit by both my generation, boomers, and my parents', the G.I. generation.  Our leaders at the time were mostly G.I. generation- a mar on their reputation for being the greatest generation.  

brianlux said:

CM189191 said:

brianlux said:

CM189191 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

If you're not watching it, you should.

This is true. Watch. Deja vu. American ego on full display. 

American ego?  Maybe American Military Industrial Complex imperialist ego, but this was not a war that was popular with the American public. Not at all.   Some folks were gung-ho, yes, but most, no.  I know a guy was a typical gung-ho young American who went into the service and into that war with all sorts of patriotic aspirations but came back from Nam with a gut load of scars as well as a head load of psychological scarring.  There were many like him.  The rest went because they were inducted and forced to go.  I would not describe that war as quintessentially American ego.

That may have been how it ended.  But ego put us there in the first place, and kept us there far longer than we should have been.  

I just think of ego as a more individual characteristic.  But I guess if you want to call our involvement in Vietnam "ego", OK,  but who's ego?  Not most of the people I knew, both of my generation and my parents.  Resistance to the war was common from early on. We put our necks on the line.  Some protesters were killed (Ohio) doing so. I remember the horrible sight of tactical squad police decked out in black moving in on horseback with helmets, clubs, guns, mace.  Some scary shit.    The war was propagated by the industrial military complex, not the people. 

In any case, I'm sure we agree the war was a travesty.  And that we haven't learned more than we have about poking our noses into everyone's business is an equal travesty.

It was the governments ego that they were worried about.  Johnson/McNamara didn't want the USA to "lose" on their watch to a bunch of Vietnamese farmers.  

I didn't realize that some congressmen were so vocally against the war back then.  This is a great documentary.

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

CM189191 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

If you're not watching it, you should.

This is true. Watch. Deja vu. American ego on full display. 

American ego?  Maybe American Military Industrial Complex imperialist ego, but this was not a war that was popular with the American public. Not at all.   Some folks were gung-ho, yes, but most, no.  I know a guy was a typical gung-ho young American who went into the service and into that war with all sorts of patriotic aspirations but came back from Nam with a gut load of scars as well as a head load of psychological scarring.  There were many like him.  The rest went because they were inducted and forced to go.  I would not describe that war as quintessentially American ego.

My dad enlisted and volunteered. Not because he was patriotic and gung-ho about the war, but because he couldn't take waiting for his number to be called.
he dropped out of college after 2 years and got his AA because he didn't want to go get drafted mid-semester. He couldn't get a real job because no one would hire a 19-year-old without a family who's number will get called any day.
so instead of the waiting game he enlisted, with the idea the sooner he goes the sooner he'd be back to start his life.
The ironic thing was he was never sent anywhere after boot camp. His theory is the small band of volunteers were so rare they were just forgotten about over the thousands of draftees that were being sent daily.

I don't remember that option ever crossing my mind but I can see it.  Some guys signed up for ROTC so they could become officers and thus less likely to end up on the front lines (though that was no guarantee).  I pretty much just waited it out.  I had a student deferment for awhile but  I was young and had poor coping skills, so I drank, got wasted a lot.  Between that and work time taking away from studies, my grades went to hell so I dropped out of school and went into full-blown anxiety waiting to get drafted.  My number got so close- I was in full freak-out mode.   I  ended up being just plain lucky.  That, for me, was the so called glorious days of peace and love.  Depressing freakin' times those.  For me, the mid to late 70's and on were so much better.

cp3iverson said:

^^^damn.  Glad u didnt go, Brian. 

Thanks, cp, me too!

rgambs said:

What's crazy is that the volunteer rate for Vietnam was higher than WW2!

Someone made a comment on the Thursday night show about how the WWII generation keeps getting referred to as "the greatest generation" and how that seems to suggest that the Vietnam vets weren't as brave, etc.

I can't disagree with that.

PJ_Soul said:

I'm recording the whole thing, and will binge watch it. I am extremely excited - I am a huge Ken Burns doc fan.

It's unbelievably good....I started watching the first night thinking that there were only four episodes.  Then I discovered that it actually runs Sun-Thurs this week also.

Yea fantastic doc. Zimmerman featured in a few of the episodes from last week.



brianlux said:

For anyone younger than 55, I would say probably a good idea.  But having lived through that era, I have a really hard time watching or reading anything about that war.  The only exception in recent years was reading Bill Zimmerman's excellent book, Troublemaker.

Just watched the second episode. The South Vietnamese dictatorship was horrific, yet they painted the Communists as the big bad wolf?!