Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

Lol

Mmm Hmm. There you have it. The poor and desperate person crosses path with eager cop ready to accommodate.

Read tberg's post. He's been a moderate on this topic for as long as I can recall. You're so busy crucifying the cop and their 'poor' tactics... you haven't even stopped to think for a second how traumatic that incident might have been for them and how they might be dealing with that right now and in the future.

It is too bad that someone would get to that point in their life where they do something like this... but the result is hardly the fault of the officer placed in that situation.

And you're too busy excusing every police action to stop and think for a second that if the officer had better training and tools, they wouldn't be having to deal with the trauma of shooting a young man to death.
Nobody is crucifying this cop, enough with the hysterics.

This isn't abuse, it's systemic failure.
Failure to properly train and equip officers for de-escalation tactics is more of an effect, not cause.
The cause of these failures is a police culture which doesn't value de-escalation, a culture with an "us against them" attitude to the core.  Perhaps you remember Muskydan's ridiculous "us against them" rhetoric?
It's also caused by a failure of our society, by harbouring a "with them or against them" attitude that allows for so little analysis and critique of police behaviour as to essentially give them absolute impunity. 
Yes, we are Monday morning quarterbacking, that's what rational beings in a civilized society do.
They analyze important events after the fact and they make determinations as to which judgements made in the moment were correct and effective, and which ones were wrong and ineffective or destructive, that way they can make improvements to systems and methods to get better results.
I don't know what you do, but can you imagine how quickly your "industry" would fall apart if your judgement (and all your associates') was suddenly beyond reproach?? 
Your attempts to stifle that rational discourse are not helping anyone.  They aren't helping police and they aren't helping police victims, they just aren't helping society at all.  
Until we admit that we CAN do better, we have no chance of making steps forward. 

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

Lol

Mmm Hmm. There you have it. The poor and desperate person crosses path with eager cop ready to accommodate.

Read tberg's post. He's been a moderate on this topic for as long as I can recall. You're so busy crucifying the cop and their 'poor' tactics... you haven't even stopped to think for a second how traumatic that incident might have been for them and how they might be dealing with that right now and in the future.

It is too bad that someone would get to that point in their life where they do something like this... but the result is hardly the fault of the officer placed in that situation.

I think you need to read often's post again.

Done.

This line: most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that... was the one that irked me a bit.

'Willing participants'? Really? From my way of thinking they could just as easy be 'reluctant participants', but it's never framed that way from the hyper critics (or noted for that matter).

pjhawks said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

except most suicide attempts have little to no inherent danger to the emergency services personnel. this case did. the person had a knife and reportedly a gun and was approaching officers even after being warned several times to stop.  in this particular case what exactly do you think the police should have done?  nothing? retreat? buy the person a cup of coffee? 

They did what they were trained to do.
Shoot to kill.
What they could have done is a different story.
I've posted it several times (much to Thirty's chagrin I'm sure), but nobody has been interested.
The Salt Lake City implemented a training program that runs through levels of force and de-escalation tactics.
In this case, if talking to the citizen was not proving effective, they likely would have given ground and attempted to subdue with taser before resorting to firing a service pistol.

pjhawks said:

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

except most suicide attempts have little to no inherent danger to the emergency services personnel. this case did. the person had a knife and reportedly a gun and was approaching officers even after being warned several times to stop.  in this particular case what exactly do you think the police should have done?  nothing? retreat? buy the person a cup of coffee? 

They did what they were trained to do.
Shoot to kill.
What they could have done is a different story.
I've posted it several times (much to Thirty's chagrin I'm sure), but nobody has been interested.
The Salt Lake City implemented a training program that runs through levels of force and de-escalation tactics.
In this case, if talking to the citizen was not proving effective, they likely would have given ground and attempted to subdue with taser before resorting to firing a service pistol.

were they equipped with tasers? if so i agree that would have been a better option. given ground i'm not sure was much of an option. it looked like a tight area.

Why wouldn't they be equipped with tasers?
What kind of smart policy and training would exclude the most effective non-lethal tool for controlling a threatening citizen??

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

except most suicide attempts have little to no inherent danger to the emergency services personnel. this case did. the person had a knife and reportedly a gun and was approaching officers even after being warned several times to stop.  in this particular case what exactly do you think the police should have done?  nothing? retreat? buy the person a cup of coffee? 

They did what they were trained to do.
Shoot to kill.
What they could have done is a different story.
I've posted it several times (much to Thirty's chagrin I'm sure), but nobody has been interested.
The Salt Lake City implemented a training program that runs through levels of force and de-escalation tactics.
In this case, if talking to the citizen was not proving effective, they likely would have given ground and attempted to subdue with taser before resorting to firing a service pistol.

were they equipped with tasers? if so i agree that would have been a better option. given ground i'm not sure was much of an option. it looked like a tight area.

Why wouldn't they be equipped with tasers?
What kind of smart policy and training would exclude the most effective non-lethal tool for controlling a threatening citizen??

lack of funding maybe?  sure as hell not every cop carries a taser as far as i know.

pjhawks said:

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

except most suicide attempts have little to no inherent danger to the emergency services personnel. this case did. the person had a knife and reportedly a gun and was approaching officers even after being warned several times to stop.  in this particular case what exactly do you think the police should have done?  nothing? retreat? buy the person a cup of coffee? 

They did what they were trained to do.
Shoot to kill.
What they could have done is a different story.
I've posted it several times (much to Thirty's chagrin I'm sure), but nobody has been interested.
The Salt Lake City implemented a training program that runs through levels of force and de-escalation tactics.
In this case, if talking to the citizen was not proving effective, they likely would have given ground and attempted to subdue with taser before resorting to firing a service pistol.

were they equipped with tasers? if so i agree that would have been a better option. given ground i'm not sure was much of an option. it looked like a tight area.

Why wouldn't they be equipped with tasers?
What kind of smart policy and training would exclude the most effective non-lethal tool for controlling a threatening citizen??

lack of funding maybe?  sure as hell not every cop carries a taser as far as i know.

Yeah, that's my point.
They should.
Tasers and bodycams, it's the damn 21st century, we should act like it.

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

except most suicide attempts have little to no inherent danger to the emergency services personnel. this case did. the person had a knife and reportedly a gun and was approaching officers even after being warned several times to stop.  in this particular case what exactly do you think the police should have done?  nothing? retreat? buy the person a cup of coffee? 

They did what they were trained to do.
Shoot to kill.
What they could have done is a different story.
I've posted it several times (much to Thirty's chagrin I'm sure), but nobody has been interested.
The Salt Lake City implemented a training program that runs through levels of force and de-escalation tactics.
In this case, if talking to the citizen was not proving effective, they likely would have given ground and attempted to subdue with taser before resorting to firing a service pistol.

"Much to my chagrin?" Implying I'm salivating for lethal cop force?

To use your words: enough with the hysterics.

(funny... eh... how one can exercise tactics that they also bemoan?)

oftenreading said:

A lengthy article but highly relevant and full of interesting information. 

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2017/05/05/police-de-escalation-training

34 states do not require police to have any training in de-escalation techniques. When a proposal requiring such training was put forward, police organizations opposed it, because they view it as unnecessary and a criticism of how they currently operate. 

Disgusting and shameful.

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

pjhawks said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

pjhawks said:

Bentleyspop said:

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Student President Of Georgia Tech's Pride Alliance Was Shot And Killed By A Campus Police Officer

https://www.buzzfeed.com/remysmidt/georgia-tech-police-shooting?utm_term=.tkBZYDEpl#.koXnOJgmD

No commentary, but yet you post this in the police abuse thread? Do you have an opinion? I don't see abuse here. It seems clear this is a suicide by cop. Nice hot topic headline though. That will get the clicks for buzzfeed.

With that said, I am wondering what type of equipment those officers carry and if they have tasers. In situations like this, it's not uncommon to have a secondary officer with taser and the main contact with gun drawn. All of us could play what if here I guess. Maybe the officer could have done some more talking to try and dissuade the behavior.

It shouldn't need to be said again, but I guess it does. There are significantly more effective ways for the police to deal with situations like this that don't end in death. They require better training and a totally different mindset, and its negligence that they aren't being employed. 

My commentary is similar to the above poster. It's a shame that this person had to die. Where were the tasers? Where was common sense? Was this police officer seriously afraid of this particular person wielding a pocket knife? If so than maybe being a police officer isn't the right vocation for him.
There has to be a way to change the situation to avoid the "suicide by cop".
Better and different training could help along with a different mindset.

but the original report said the person had a knife and a gun. they refused to drop the knife. do you want to let someone reportedly who has a gun to continue to come at you?  can you make that distinction when your in the line of fire?  

My guess is that the officer could clearly see that this person did not have a gun. Reported or not. If he could not see this then maybe he needs to have his eyes examined.
If the kid did indeed have a gun in his hand and was threatening people then I don't blame the office for the outcome.

what with x-ray vision? how could they tell, after it was reported the person had a gun, that the gun wasn't concealed on the victim?   if someone told you someone had a gun that wasn't out in the open would you really trust that said person didn't have one?  come on your stretching it if you say yes

What I thought too. Especially if they were reported to have a knife and a gun, and they are clearly wielding a knife, I wouldn't assume they isn't a gun just because I can't see it.
But its all a mute point anyway. He had a knife. Knives are deadly.
He was asked for over a minute on video to drop said knife (and who knows for how long before the video started).
He approached the officers with the knife in his hand.

And yet, the media titles are still going to spread this like a homophobic hate murder.

I'll just come back to my point - properly trained police officers know how to deal with the situation, and it isn't just repeatedly commanding "drop the knife", and then shooting the guy. You think Canadian cops don't face individuals with knives or other potential weapons fairly frequently? They do; they just typically respond differently, and shoot fewer people. 

According to WaPo there were 111 shootings by police of people armed with knives in 2016. The Guardian says the number is 159. A pretty big difference, but at least we have an idea of the statistics. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere in any data that indicates how many encounters police have with people wielding knives, which would at least provide some perspective to how frequently it ends in a fatal shooting. 

Now for Canada, I found it virtually impossible to figure out what the numbers even are just for shootings in general. I'm sure it is lower because of the obvious fact of the general population difference, 320+ million in the US compared to 36+ million in Canada.

https://news.vice.com/article/its-impossible-to-find-out-exactly-how-many-people-are-shot-by-cops-in-canada

I do continue to agree with you on the training aspect because law enforcement definitely needs training, training and more training, but let's be a little less quick to call it abuse just because a cop shot somebody.

I didn't call it abuse. I said that if the officers are not being trained appropriately in methods to deal with these situations then the departments are negligent, because there's no way to argue that there aren't well recognized methods out there to handle these situations, which are not particularly rare. 

And for those who say "just don't do it and you won't be shot" - that's so totally ridiculous as to not even justify a response, but for the sake of it, most people who engage in these behaviours ("suicide by cop") are pretty desperate, aren't thinking particularly clearly, and may indeed have their own death as a goal. That doesn't mean that the police should be willing participants in that. Emergency services intervene in suicide attempts many times a day; this is just one form of that. 

except most suicide attempts have little to no inherent danger to the emergency services personnel. this case did. the person had a knife and reportedly a gun and was approaching officers even after being warned several times to stop.  in this particular case what exactly do you think the police should have done?  nothing? retreat? buy the person a cup of coffee? 

They did what they were trained to do.
Shoot to kill.
What they could have done is a different story.
I've posted it several times (much to Thirty's chagrin I'm sure), but nobody has been interested.
The Salt Lake City implemented a training program that runs through levels of force and de-escalation tactics.
In this case, if talking to the citizen was not proving effective, they likely would have given ground and attempted to subdue with taser before resorting to firing a service pistol.

"Much to my chagrin?" Implying I'm salivating for lethal cop force?

To use your words: enough with the hysterics.

(funny... eh... how one can exercise tactics that they also bemoan?)

No, implying that you are chagrined by seeing me post reference to police successfully using tactics that I have advocated for and you have ridiculed with extreme fervor.

Lol. Well that's nicer at least.

I'm not sure what this situation was going to amount to if the cops had tactfully retreated. It might have finished more peacefully... who knows?

Regardless of any tactical models adopted by police at some point... cops will be placed in a position where they will need to defend themselves. We are debating where that line should be. I don't think it should be after they have unsuccessfully managed to unarm and detain someone after issuing commands and hand to hand combat fails.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

CM189191 said:

mace1229 said:

CM189191 said:

old news but relevant:

Cop fired for not shooting armed suicidal suspect
"Such restraint should be praised not penalized. To tell a police officer -- when in doubt -- either shoot to kill or get fired, is a choice that no police officer should ever have to make and is a message that is wrong and should never be sent," said his attorney, Timothy O'Brien.

Cops are no longer trained to protect and serve.  They are trained to view everything as a threat to be neutralized.  

So you really want cops firing their weapon when they don't intend to kill? That seems like a whole new level of a can of worms to me.
The whole point of shoot to kill (and yes, some will argue its shoot center mass, but thats basically the same thing) is two very simple reasons.
1- Never fire your weapon unless you intend to kill someone
2- Dont intend to kill someone unless you fear for your or someone else's safety

And I guess you could add a third of
3-if you are truly afraid for your life, I wouldnt want anything less than lethal force. Police have a right to protect themselves just like everyone else. Tasers dont always stop a guy with a knife. Especially someone on drugs, and they dont know the situation. 

That's it. You bring in shoot to injure in the picture, then the next conversation is going to be "well I was aiming for his leg as he ran away, but missed and nailed him in the back. Sorry you're paralyzed for life now."

The officer in the article didn't shoot at all. He was a former marine, facing someone holding a gun and managed to diffuse the situation without firing a shot. 

But since you brought it up, yes I would like police to stop shooting people and asking questions later. Why can't the US figure this out? 

US police kill more in days than other countries do in years

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

And what is this saying?

Is it saying the US is fraught with bloodthirsty police that love shooting people? Or is it speaking to the 'tip' of the problem which is the manifestation of brutal behaviours- borne from a multitude of social issues- that result in police encounters?

Again... we all like to point our fingers at the police, but we rarely point our fingers at ourselves. The US citizens are responsible for the inequities prevalent in their country that result in criminalized people encountering police.  Get behind solid social programming instead of things like military might and many of these situations will not present themselves. And I could go on, but won't.  

Outside of the outliers... ultimately, police are just people like us: doing a job and wanting to come home after doing their job.

You're talking about fixing the biggest problem in human civilization as if it's easy, to avoid tackling a much smaller problem because dealing with that issue makes you uncomfortable.
Everyone knows and agrees that poverty causes these issues, but poverty has never been eradicated in human history, while implementation of bodycams and increasing training are simple snap of the finger solutions that will cause immediate improvement.