Please rise and remove your caps

pjhawks · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

I also don't bow my head during grace/prayer, whether in a church or someone's house. sue me. My knight of columbus father in law respects my choice, so I figure anyone else can too.

so you go to other's houses and don't respect their traditions and ideals? i don't think it's a stretch if you are being served a meal in someone else's house and they want to pray before the meal to bow your darn head to respect them. do you go to other countries and ignore their customs and traditions?

PJ_Soul · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think of it along the same lines as being at a nice dinner and not putting the cloth napkin on your lap. It's not an egregious sin or anything to me - someone not taking off their cap during the anthem isn't going to lead to any actual negative consequences. It just makes you look like you don't have any damn manners or respect for the situation. That's up to the individual if they want to come off as someone whose parents didn't teach them any manners... I know I don't want to be one of those people, and I know my parents don't want to be either.

but this is the point that people are missing: it is considered "rude" or "disrespectful", but NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN WHY. Same thing with elbows on the table. This came up a while back as well. I was about to tell my 10 year old to get her elbows off the table, but before I did, I thought to myself "why? why is that rude? it's really not". I'm guessing it had something to do with hygeine back in farm days or whatever. But it's not really applicable now. Wash your hands (and elbows if necessary) before coming to dinner.

Someone previously made a great point: do people watching a game at home stand up, take their hat off and/or put their hand/hat on their chests during the anthem. Why/why not? what difference does it make where you are? it's only rude in a crowd or in person? that makes no sense.

a new north american proverb:

if you wear a hat during an anthem and no one's around, is it still rude?

Just because it is is what is dictated by good manners, which developed over time and a long time ago for specific reasons and became a part of tradition and culture. There are TONS of behaviours like this, and they are simply cultural practices. They all do have clear explanations: I happen to already know that no elbows on the table came from the fact that tables could be and can be unstable and putting your weight on the table can make it rock or topple, especially back in the day. That evolved into it being rude no matter what table it was.

I had to look this up, but hats off during the anthem originated from:

"The origins of this tradition happen to be the same as the origins of the tradition of saluting. Knights, wearing helmets that covered their heads, would typically lift their visors to show their faces to their monarchs and others as a sign of friendliness and possibly respect in some cases. The tradition of using ones right hand also comes from this. Most people are right handed and thus, if your right hand is exposed and busy lifting your visor, it can’t contain a weapon. This then is a sign symbolic of submission.

Fast forward a bit in history and this developed into the salute for soldiers. At first, the soldiers would doff their helmets or other head-ware as a sign of respect. However, the Coldstream Guards in 1745 were the first to forbid this: “The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass them.”

This practice quickly caught on, owing to the fact that the helmet or hat is a part of the uniform and thus it began to be thought of as disrespectful to take it off. It also could be dangerous to take off a helmet in battle with gunfire and other shrapnel about."

So that evolved into a tradition for civilians too (actually, i glimpsed during my search the military at some point demanded it from civilians, which is when it jumped from military personnel to the general public). Almost every cultural practice or tradition has a more practical origin.

HesCalledDyer · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HesCalledDyer said:

pjhawks said:

HesCalledDyer said:

pjhawks said:

the cap is supposed to go over the heart. it's a sign of respect and love for those who fought for your freedom. don't be a dick. remove your hat and put it over your heart during the anthem.

But why is it a sign of respect? Who deemed it as such? For those who fought for our freedoms - what does that have anything to do with a hat? What about a foreigner visiting and catching a game? No one here fought for his freedom. Why do we just blindly follow this "tradition" without questioning its validity and application to modern times?

better people than you apparently. any other common courtesy you want to piss on too? not into saying please and thank you or hold the door for a woman? are you against happy birthdays and giving gifts too? how about saying I love you? want to question who deemed that appropriate? any others?

No need for personal attacks, man. I'm not pissing on anything, just asking questions. That's what people do when they don't understand things and want to learn of their origins and reasons. I don't see how not taking a hat off is a sign of disrespect to ANYTHING, moreover to those who fought for my freedoms. And the only reason anyone has is "because that's the way it is."

not attacking just offering my opinion that someone who respects the tradition of taking their hat off during the anthem is a better person than someone who doesn't.

'a better person than you, obviously' is not a personal attack? then what is, exactly?

until you can answer why people do it, instead of just blindly following customs that affect no one and make little to no sense, keep your attacks to yourself.

it tells a lot about a person if you think you judge a person's character solely on the fact if they take their hat off during a national anthem. jesus christ.

it was and that is why i admitted that i deserved to be called a di-- above. not one of my finer moments here i admit.

and where did i say I judge character based solely on if they take their hat off? every action leads to how someone is judged especially in that moment. In that moment ,if you do that, I think you are being disrespectful in that moment. that doesn't mean that is your full character. It takes time to fully judge someone and not just one small issue.

here-pretty clear to me: just offering my opinion that someone who respects the tradition of taking their hat off during the anthem is a better person than someone who doesn't.

yes that is literally the only thing i judge someone's character on (Insert eye roll here).

the words were pretty clear. own them or don't. who cares.

well clearly you care. as i said 'every action leads to how someone is judged IN THAT MOMENT'. that is how i judge someone IN THAT MOMENT that doesn't take their hat off. yes in that moment the person who takes the hat off is a better person than the person who doesn't. you got it now or do i need to define it even more?

or just read PJ_Souls comment above mine. they said it better than i ever could.

no, I don't care. Just pointing out something that someone said. I went by your original comment, which said nothing about "IN THAT MOMENT" or whatever backpeddling you are doing now. I don't judge anyone as better than anyone else "IN THAT MOMENT". simply because I don't fucking know them.

either way, moving on.

Also, pjhawks, why do you feel the need to judge someone in the first place? That, to me, is disrespectful (and hypocritical, too). I mean, YOU'RE obviously not paying attention to the anthem and honoring those who fought for your freedoms if you're spending your time looking around for people in hats to judge them as lesser than you.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I also don't bow my head during grace/prayer, whether in a church or someone's house. sue me. My knight of columbus father in law respects my choice, so I figure anyone else can too.

so you go to other's houses and don't respect their traditions and ideals? i don't think it's a stretch if you are being served a meal in someone else's house and they want to pray before the meal to bow your darn head to respect them. do you go to other countries and ignore their customs and traditions?

how is that respecting them? you could argue they are disrepecting me for making me do something against my beliefs. I have never once met anyone who had an issue with it. Not one. It's called tolerance. Why the fuck would they want someone to pray when it's against what they believe? that would be pretty stupid.

if someone vocalized their being displeased with me, then we'd have to have the talk. But no, I don't participate in religious customs, except where my daughters are concerned (being raised catholic). I wouldn't ask anyone to participate in anything that makes them uncomfortable. So why should they ask that of me?

to me, participating in that stuff is not in the same league as taking your shoes off or putting a napkin on your lap.

pjhawks · May 2017

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HesCalledDyer said:

pjhawks said:

HesCalledDyer said:

pjhawks said:

the cap is supposed to go over the heart. it's a sign of respect and love for those who fought for your freedom. don't be a dick. remove your hat and put it over your heart during the anthem.

But why is it a sign of respect? Who deemed it as such? For those who fought for our freedoms - what does that have anything to do with a hat? What about a foreigner visiting and catching a game? No one here fought for his freedom. Why do we just blindly follow this "tradition" without questioning its validity and application to modern times?

better people than you apparently. any other common courtesy you want to piss on too? not into saying please and thank you or hold the door for a woman? are you against happy birthdays and giving gifts too? how about saying I love you? want to question who deemed that appropriate? any others?

No need for personal attacks, man. I'm not pissing on anything, just asking questions. That's what people do when they don't understand things and want to learn of their origins and reasons. I don't see how not taking a hat off is a sign of disrespect to ANYTHING, moreover to those who fought for my freedoms. And the only reason anyone has is "because that's the way it is."

not attacking just offering my opinion that someone who respects the tradition of taking their hat off during the anthem is a better person than someone who doesn't.

'a better person than you, obviously' is not a personal attack? then what is, exactly?

until you can answer why people do it, instead of just blindly following customs that affect no one and make little to no sense, keep your attacks to yourself.

it tells a lot about a person if you think you judge a person's character solely on the fact if they take their hat off during a national anthem. jesus christ.

it was and that is why i admitted that i deserved to be called a di-- above. not one of my finer moments here i admit.

and where did i say I judge character based solely on if they take their hat off? every action leads to how someone is judged especially in that moment. In that moment ,if you do that, I think you are being disrespectful in that moment. that doesn't mean that is your full character. It takes time to fully judge someone and not just one small issue.

here-pretty clear to me: just offering my opinion that someone who respects the tradition of taking their hat off during the anthem is a better person than someone who doesn't.

yes that is literally the only thing i judge someone's character on (Insert eye roll here).

the words were pretty clear. own them or don't. who cares.

well clearly you care. as i said 'every action leads to how someone is judged IN THAT MOMENT'. that is how i judge someone IN THAT MOMENT that doesn't take their hat off. yes in that moment the person who takes the hat off is a better person than the person who doesn't. you got it now or do i need to define it even more?

or just read PJ_Souls comment above mine. they said it better than i ever could.

no, I don't care. Just pointing out something that someone said. I went by your original comment, which said nothing about "IN THAT MOMENT" or whatever backpeddling you are doing now. I don't judge anyone as better than anyone else "IN THAT MOMENT". simply because I don't fucking know them.

either way, moving on.

Also, pjhawks, why do you feel the need to judge someone in the first place? That, to me, is disrespectful (and hypocritical, too). I mean, YOU'RE obviously not paying attention to the anthem and honoring those who fought for your freedoms if you're spending your time looking around for people in hats to judge them as lesser than you.

someone has to be judge and jury. might as well be someone as awesome as me

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think of it along the same lines as being at a nice dinner and not putting the cloth napkin on your lap. It's not an egregious sin or anything to me - someone not taking off their cap during the anthem isn't going to lead to any actual negative consequences. It just makes you look like you don't have any damn manners or respect for the situation. That's up to the individual if they want to come off as someone whose parents didn't teach them any manners... I know I don't want to be one of those people, and I know my parents don't want to be either.

but this is the point that people are missing: it is considered "rude" or "disrespectful", but NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN WHY. Same thing with elbows on the table. This came up a while back as well. I was about to tell my 10 year old to get her elbows off the table, but before I did, I thought to myself "why? why is that rude? it's really not". I'm guessing it had something to do with hygeine back in farm days or whatever. But it's not really applicable now. Wash your hands (and elbows if necessary) before coming to dinner.

Someone previously made a great point: do people watching a game at home stand up, take their hat off and/or put their hand/hat on their chests during the anthem. Why/why not? what difference does it make where you are? it's only rude in a crowd or in person? that makes no sense.

a new north american proverb:

if you wear a hat during an anthem and no one's around, is it still rude?

Just because it is is what is dictated by good manners, which developed over time and a long time ago for specific reasons and became a part of tradition and culture. There are TONS of behaviours like this, and they are simply cultural practices. They all do have clear explanations: I happen to already know that no elbows on the table came from the fact that tables could be and can be unstable and putting your weight on the table can make it rock or topple, especially back in the day. That evolved into it being rude no matter what table it was.

I had to look this up, but hats off during the anthem originated from:
"The origins of this tradition happen to be the same as the origins of the tradition of saluting. Knights, wearing helmets that covered their heads, would typically lift their visors to show their faces to their monarchs and others as a sign of friendliness and possibly respect in some cases. The tradition of using ones right hand also comes from this. Most people are right handed and thus, if your right hand is exposed and busy lifting your visor, it can’t contain a weapon. This then is a sign symbolic of submission.

Fast forward a bit in history and this developed into the salute for soldiers. At first, the soldiers would doff their helmets or other head-ware as a sign of respect. However, the Coldstream Guards in 1745 were the first to forbid this: “The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass them.”

This practice quickly caught on, owing to the fact that the helmet or hat is a part of the uniform and thus it began to be thought of as disrespectful to take it off. It also could be dangerous to take off a helmet in battle with gunfire and other shrapnel about."
So that evolved into a tradition for civilians too (actually, i glimpsed during my search the military at some point demanded it from civilians, which is when it jumped from military personnel to the general public). Almost every cultural practice or tradition has a more practical origin.

exactly. outdated and nonsensical in today's culture.

pjhawks · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I also don't bow my head during grace/prayer, whether in a church or someone's house. sue me. My knight of columbus father in law respects my choice, so I figure anyone else can too.

so you go to other's houses and don't respect their traditions and ideals? i don't think it's a stretch if you are being served a meal in someone else's house and they want to pray before the meal to bow your darn head to respect them. do you go to other countries and ignore their customs and traditions?

how is that respecting them? you could argue they are disrepecting me for making me do something against my beliefs. I have never once met anyone who had an issue with it. Not one. It's called tolerance. Why the fuck would they want someone to pray when it's against what they believe? that would be pretty stupid.

if someone vocalized their being displeased with me, then we'd have to have the talk. But no, I don't participate in religious customs, except where my daughters are concerned (being raised catholic). I wouldn't ask anyone to participate in anything that makes them uncomfortable. So why should they ask that of me?

to me, participating in that stuff is not in the same league as taking your shoes off or putting a napkin on your lap.

so you don't act any differently in other peoples homes than you do in your own? wow ok

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I also don't bow my head during grace/prayer, whether in a church or someone's house. sue me. My knight of columbus father in law respects my choice, so I figure anyone else can too.

so you go to other's houses and don't respect their traditions and ideals? i don't think it's a stretch if you are being served a meal in someone else's house and they want to pray before the meal to bow your darn head to respect them. do you go to other countries and ignore their customs and traditions?

how is that respecting them? you could argue they are disrepecting me for making me do something against my beliefs. I have never once met anyone who had an issue with it. Not one. It's called tolerance. Why the fuck would they want someone to pray when it's against what they believe? that would be pretty stupid.

if someone vocalized their being displeased with me, then we'd have to have the talk. But no, I don't participate in religious customs, except where my daughters are concerned (being raised catholic). I wouldn't ask anyone to participate in anything that makes them uncomfortable. So why should they ask that of me?

to me, participating in that stuff is not in the same league as taking your shoes off or putting a napkin on your lap.

so you don't act any differently in other peoples homes than you do in your own? wow ok

yeah, that's what I said. (insert eye roll)

PJ_Soul · May 2017

Well HFD, maybe it is this simple: In the words of the great George Costanza, "You know, WE'RE LIVING IN A SOCIETY!"

PJ_Soul · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think of it along the same lines as being at a nice dinner and not putting the cloth napkin on your lap. It's not an egregious sin or anything to me - someone not taking off their cap during the anthem isn't going to lead to any actual negative consequences. It just makes you look like you don't have any damn manners or respect for the situation. That's up to the individual if they want to come off as someone whose parents didn't teach them any manners... I know I don't want to be one of those people, and I know my parents don't want to be either.

but this is the point that people are missing: it is considered "rude" or "disrespectful", but NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN WHY. Same thing with elbows on the table. This came up a while back as well. I was about to tell my 10 year old to get her elbows off the table, but before I did, I thought to myself "why? why is that rude? it's really not". I'm guessing it had something to do with hygeine back in farm days or whatever. But it's not really applicable now. Wash your hands (and elbows if necessary) before coming to dinner.

Someone previously made a great point: do people watching a game at home stand up, take their hat off and/or put their hand/hat on their chests during the anthem. Why/why not? what difference does it make where you are? it's only rude in a crowd or in person? that makes no sense.

a new north american proverb:

if you wear a hat during an anthem and no one's around, is it still rude?

Just because it is is what is dictated by good manners, which developed over time and a long time ago for specific reasons and became a part of tradition and culture. There are TONS of behaviours like this, and they are simply cultural practices. They all do have clear explanations: I happen to already know that no elbows on the table came from the fact that tables could be and can be unstable and putting your weight on the table can make it rock or topple, especially back in the day. That evolved into it being rude no matter what table it was.

I had to look this up, but hats off during the anthem originated from:
"The origins of this tradition happen to be the same as the origins of the tradition of saluting. Knights, wearing helmets that covered their heads, would typically lift their visors to show their faces to their monarchs and others as a sign of friendliness and possibly respect in some cases. The tradition of using ones right hand also comes from this. Most people are right handed and thus, if your right hand is exposed and busy lifting your visor, it can’t contain a weapon. This then is a sign symbolic of submission.

Fast forward a bit in history and this developed into the salute for soldiers. At first, the soldiers would doff their helmets or other head-ware as a sign of respect. However, the Coldstream Guards in 1745 were the first to forbid this: “The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass them.”

This practice quickly caught on, owing to the fact that the helmet or hat is a part of the uniform and thus it began to be thought of as disrespectful to take it off. It also could be dangerous to take off a helmet in battle with gunfire and other shrapnel about."
So that evolved into a tradition for civilians too (actually, i glimpsed during my search the military at some point demanded it from civilians, which is when it jumped from military personnel to the general public). Almost every cultural practice or tradition has a more practical origin.

exactly. outdated and nonsensical in today's culture.

But what you are necessarily arguing for is no culture or social traditions at all.... ? Because that is how all cultural behaviours and manners develop. . If I'm hearing you right, you essentially want all manners and cultural practices that evolved over time to be thrown out the window unless they still have some validity in terms of sanitation.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

PJ_Soul said:

Well HFD, maybe it is this simple: In the words of the great George Costanza, "You know, WE'RE LIVING IN A SOCIETY!"

I find myself yelling that out more than you'd think. common courtesy, or lack thereof, by the general populace, drives me fucking batty a good part of the time. I keep trying to tell myself that I need to calm down, but when little things like riding the bus and able-bodied people don't fucking move for a little old lady or a pregnant woman or a man with a walker, it drives me insane. everyone seems to be in their own selfish world a good part of the time, and it gets to me. a LOT.

just don't ask me to pray with you, and we're golden.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I also don't bow my head during grace/prayer, whether in a church or someone's house. sue me. My knight of columbus father in law respects my choice, so I figure anyone else can too.

so you go to other's houses and don't respect their traditions and ideals? i don't think it's a stretch if you are being served a meal in someone else's house and they want to pray before the meal to bow your darn head to respect them. do you go to other countries and ignore their customs and traditions?

how is that respecting them? you could argue they are disrepecting me for making me do something against my beliefs. I have never once met anyone who had an issue with it. Not one. It's called tolerance. Why the fuck would they want someone to pray when it's against what they believe? that would be pretty stupid.

if someone vocalized their being displeased with me, then we'd have to have the talk. But no, I don't participate in religious customs, except where my daughters are concerned (being raised catholic). I wouldn't ask anyone to participate in anything that makes them uncomfortable. So why should they ask that of me?

to me, participating in that stuff is not in the same league as taking your shoes off or putting a napkin on your lap.

so you don't act any differently in other peoples homes than you do in your own? wow ok

by the way, I just don't happen to hang out with people who I know are so religious that they pray at dinner, so in general, I have no "customs" issues with people. I don't dine with strangers or priests on the regular, either.

just for a little window into the HFD world, I can tell you that I'm probably one of the most conscientious people out there where it comes to others. for one small example, when I was a smoker, I did not smoke in other people's houses, even if they told me it was ok. I'd still be the only dolt outside at a party smoking (in minus 40), but whatever; the host wasn't a smoker, so I didn't think I should do it.

pjhawks · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I also don't bow my head during grace/prayer, whether in a church or someone's house. sue me. My knight of columbus father in law respects my choice, so I figure anyone else can too.

so you go to other's houses and don't respect their traditions and ideals? i don't think it's a stretch if you are being served a meal in someone else's house and they want to pray before the meal to bow your darn head to respect them. do you go to other countries and ignore their customs and traditions?

how is that respecting them? you could argue they are disrepecting me for making me do something against my beliefs. I have never once met anyone who had an issue with it. Not one. It's called tolerance. Why the fuck would they want someone to pray when it's against what they believe? that would be pretty stupid.

if someone vocalized their being displeased with me, then we'd have to have the talk. But no, I don't participate in religious customs, except where my daughters are concerned (being raised catholic). I wouldn't ask anyone to participate in anything that makes them uncomfortable. So why should they ask that of me?

to me, participating in that stuff is not in the same league as taking your shoes off or putting a napkin on your lap.

so you don't act any differently in other peoples homes than you do in your own? wow ok

by the way, I just don't happen to hang out with people who I know are so religious that they pray at dinner, so in general, I have no "customs" issues with people. I don't dine with strangers or priests on the regular, either.

just for a little window into the HFD world, I can tell you that I'm probably one of the most conscientious people out there where it comes to others. for one small example, when I was a smoker, I did not smoke in other people's houses, even if they told me it was ok. I'd still be the only dolt outside at a party smoking (in minus 40), but whatever; the host wasn't a smoker, so I didn't think I should do it.

neither do i. grew up catholic so know that whole deal.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think of it along the same lines as being at a nice dinner and not putting the cloth napkin on your lap. It's not an egregious sin or anything to me - someone not taking off their cap during the anthem isn't going to lead to any actual negative consequences. It just makes you look like you don't have any damn manners or respect for the situation. That's up to the individual if they want to come off as someone whose parents didn't teach them any manners... I know I don't want to be one of those people, and I know my parents don't want to be either.

but this is the point that people are missing: it is considered "rude" or "disrespectful", but NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN WHY. Same thing with elbows on the table. This came up a while back as well. I was about to tell my 10 year old to get her elbows off the table, but before I did, I thought to myself "why? why is that rude? it's really not". I'm guessing it had something to do with hygeine back in farm days or whatever. But it's not really applicable now. Wash your hands (and elbows if necessary) before coming to dinner.

Someone previously made a great point: do people watching a game at home stand up, take their hat off and/or put their hand/hat on their chests during the anthem. Why/why not? what difference does it make where you are? it's only rude in a crowd or in person? that makes no sense.

a new north american proverb:

if you wear a hat during an anthem and no one's around, is it still rude?

Just because it is is what is dictated by good manners, which developed over time and a long time ago for specific reasons and became a part of tradition and culture. There are TONS of behaviours like this, and they are simply cultural practices. They all do have clear explanations: I happen to already know that no elbows on the table came from the fact that tables could be and can be unstable and putting your weight on the table can make it rock or topple, especially back in the day. That evolved into it being rude no matter what table it was.

I had to look this up, but hats off during the anthem originated from:
"The origins of this tradition happen to be the same as the origins of the tradition of saluting. Knights, wearing helmets that covered their heads, would typically lift their visors to show their faces to their monarchs and others as a sign of friendliness and possibly respect in some cases. The tradition of using ones right hand also comes from this. Most people are right handed and thus, if your right hand is exposed and busy lifting your visor, it can’t contain a weapon. This then is a sign symbolic of submission.

Fast forward a bit in history and this developed into the salute for soldiers. At first, the soldiers would doff their helmets or other head-ware as a sign of respect. However, the Coldstream Guards in 1745 were the first to forbid this: “The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass them.”

This practice quickly caught on, owing to the fact that the helmet or hat is a part of the uniform and thus it began to be thought of as disrespectful to take it off. It also could be dangerous to take off a helmet in battle with gunfire and other shrapnel about."
So that evolved into a tradition for civilians too (actually, i glimpsed during my search the military at some point demanded it from civilians, which is when it jumped from military personnel to the general public). Almost every cultural practice or tradition has a more practical origin.

exactly. outdated and nonsensical in today's culture.

But what you are necessarily arguing for is no culture or social traditions at all.... ? Because that is how all cultural behaviours and manners develop. . If I'm hearing you right, you essentially want all manners and cultural practices that evolved over time to be thrown out the window unless they still have some validity in terms of sanitation.

no, it's not that black and white. I teach my kids manners, I think those are important. it's important to show respect and thanks to others. But taking off your hat shows respect for.....a king from 500 years ago. that's my point. if the custom is outdated and no real-world applicability anymore, I don't see why people get up in arms about it.

my dinner table has no wobbly legs. so there's no reason for my kid not to be comfortable when eating.

HesCalledDyer · May 2017

And for the record, I do stand and remove my hat at sporting events during the anthem. I have always questioned it, but I'm not gonna be the elephant in the room while everyone does it. I know I like being the odd man out but, in some situations, it just feels more weird than others.
Praying at dinner. No. I don't do it. I don't do anything churchy or Jesusy. And about 99.999999% of the dinners I've ever eaten, praying was not a thing. The other 0.000001%, I just sit there silently looking at my plate while they do their thing.
I'll remove my hat indoors or leave my shoes at the door or whatever other rules someone has for their own home if they ask (or if it's implied or already understood, etc). No big deal.
I open and hold doors for people, regardless of who they are. And if they aren't as able-bodied as me, I allow them to go through the door first. I say please and thanks to practically everyone for practically anything. Sneezing, I say "gesundheit," the German word for health, if I'm still in the room. No God or religious suggestion involved. But other people sneezing grosses me the fuck out so I tend to excuse myself from that situation whenever possible. It is seriously one of my biggest phobias.

PJ_Soul · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think of it along the same lines as being at a nice dinner and not putting the cloth napkin on your lap. It's not an egregious sin or anything to me - someone not taking off their cap during the anthem isn't going to lead to any actual negative consequences. It just makes you look like you don't have any damn manners or respect for the situation. That's up to the individual if they want to come off as someone whose parents didn't teach them any manners... I know I don't want to be one of those people, and I know my parents don't want to be either.

but this is the point that people are missing: it is considered "rude" or "disrespectful", but NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN WHY. Same thing with elbows on the table. This came up a while back as well. I was about to tell my 10 year old to get her elbows off the table, but before I did, I thought to myself "why? why is that rude? it's really not". I'm guessing it had something to do with hygeine back in farm days or whatever. But it's not really applicable now. Wash your hands (and elbows if necessary) before coming to dinner.

Someone previously made a great point: do people watching a game at home stand up, take their hat off and/or put their hand/hat on their chests during the anthem. Why/why not? what difference does it make where you are? it's only rude in a crowd or in person? that makes no sense.

a new north american proverb:

if you wear a hat during an anthem and no one's around, is it still rude?

Just because it is is what is dictated by good manners, which developed over time and a long time ago for specific reasons and became a part of tradition and culture. There are TONS of behaviours like this, and they are simply cultural practices. They all do have clear explanations: I happen to already know that no elbows on the table came from the fact that tables could be and can be unstable and putting your weight on the table can make it rock or topple, especially back in the day. That evolved into it being rude no matter what table it was.

I had to look this up, but hats off during the anthem originated from:
"The origins of this tradition happen to be the same as the origins of the tradition of saluting. Knights, wearing helmets that covered their heads, would typically lift their visors to show their faces to their monarchs and others as a sign of friendliness and possibly respect in some cases. The tradition of using ones right hand also comes from this. Most people are right handed and thus, if your right hand is exposed and busy lifting your visor, it can’t contain a weapon. This then is a sign symbolic of submission.

Fast forward a bit in history and this developed into the salute for soldiers. At first, the soldiers would doff their helmets or other head-ware as a sign of respect. However, the Coldstream Guards in 1745 were the first to forbid this: “The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass them.”

This practice quickly caught on, owing to the fact that the helmet or hat is a part of the uniform and thus it began to be thought of as disrespectful to take it off. It also could be dangerous to take off a helmet in battle with gunfire and other shrapnel about."
So that evolved into a tradition for civilians too (actually, i glimpsed during my search the military at some point demanded it from civilians, which is when it jumped from military personnel to the general public). Almost every cultural practice or tradition has a more practical origin.

exactly. outdated and nonsensical in today's culture.

But what you are necessarily arguing for is no culture or social traditions at all.... ? Because that is how all cultural behaviours and manners develop. . If I'm hearing you right, you essentially want all manners and cultural practices that evolved over time to be thrown out the window unless they still have some validity in terms of sanitation.

no, it's not that black and white. I teach my kids manners, I think those are important. it's important to show respect and thanks to others. But taking off your hat shows respect for.....a king from 500 years ago. that's my point. if the custom is outdated and no real-world applicability anymore, I don't see why people get up in arms about it.

my dinner table has no wobbly legs. so there's no reason for my kid not to be comfortable when eating.

Because almost nobody knows the origins of the tradition. All most people know is that it is how you show respect for the national anthem being sung. Simple as that. So when they see someone not doing it, it stands to reason that they view that as a lack of respect. Makes sense.

F Me In The Brain · May 2017

HesCalledDyer said:

And for the record, I do stand and remove my hat at sporting events during the anthem. I have always questioned it, but I'm not gonna be the elephant in the room while everyone does it. I know I like being the odd man out but, in some situations, it just feels more weird than others.
Praying at dinner. No. I don't do it. I don't do anything churchy or Jesusy. And about 99.999999% of the dinners I've ever eaten, praying was not a thing. The other 0.000001%, I just sit there silently looking at my plate while they do their thing.
I'll remove my hat indoors or leave my shoes at the door or whatever other rules someone has for their own home if they ask (or if it's implied or already understood, etc). No big deal.
I open and hold doors for people, regardless of who they are. And if they aren't as able-bodied as me, I allow them to go through the door first. I say please and thanks to practically everyone for practically anything. Sneezing, I say "gesundheit," the German word for health, if I'm still in the room. No God or religious suggestion involved. But other people sneezing grosses me the fuck out so I tend to excuse myself from that situation whenever possible. It is seriously one of my biggest phobias.

My wife didn't want to tell people this when we first moved back east. (She has never cleaned a day in her friggin' life.)
I explained to her the difference when people have wet or dirty or snowy shoes.
Took her 1 season into home ownership to have no issue whatsoever in asking people.

Now...if it is summertime and we are hosting a party? No problem, we know we are going to have to do a deep clean on the rugs in the rooms there are rugs after and dry shoes don't mess with the hardwood. Tell people not to worry about the shoes that day.

Winter/Muddy, or Rainy? Bro, you are taking your shoes off or you are hanging outside by the pool or on one of the patios.
I have busted my FIL many times on this. Do not enter my house if you don't want to play by my rules.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think of it along the same lines as being at a nice dinner and not putting the cloth napkin on your lap. It's not an egregious sin or anything to me - someone not taking off their cap during the anthem isn't going to lead to any actual negative consequences. It just makes you look like you don't have any damn manners or respect for the situation. That's up to the individual if they want to come off as someone whose parents didn't teach them any manners... I know I don't want to be one of those people, and I know my parents don't want to be either.

but this is the point that people are missing: it is considered "rude" or "disrespectful", but NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN WHY. Same thing with elbows on the table. This came up a while back as well. I was about to tell my 10 year old to get her elbows off the table, but before I did, I thought to myself "why? why is that rude? it's really not". I'm guessing it had something to do with hygeine back in farm days or whatever. But it's not really applicable now. Wash your hands (and elbows if necessary) before coming to dinner.

Someone previously made a great point: do people watching a game at home stand up, take their hat off and/or put their hand/hat on their chests during the anthem. Why/why not? what difference does it make where you are? it's only rude in a crowd or in person? that makes no sense.

a new north american proverb:

if you wear a hat during an anthem and no one's around, is it still rude?

Just because it is is what is dictated by good manners, which developed over time and a long time ago for specific reasons and became a part of tradition and culture. There are TONS of behaviours like this, and they are simply cultural practices. They all do have clear explanations: I happen to already know that no elbows on the table came from the fact that tables could be and can be unstable and putting your weight on the table can make it rock or topple, especially back in the day. That evolved into it being rude no matter what table it was.

I had to look this up, but hats off during the anthem originated from:
"The origins of this tradition happen to be the same as the origins of the tradition of saluting. Knights, wearing helmets that covered their heads, would typically lift their visors to show their faces to their monarchs and others as a sign of friendliness and possibly respect in some cases. The tradition of using ones right hand also comes from this. Most people are right handed and thus, if your right hand is exposed and busy lifting your visor, it can’t contain a weapon. This then is a sign symbolic of submission.

Fast forward a bit in history and this developed into the salute for soldiers. At first, the soldiers would doff their helmets or other head-ware as a sign of respect. However, the Coldstream Guards in 1745 were the first to forbid this: “The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass them.”

This practice quickly caught on, owing to the fact that the helmet or hat is a part of the uniform and thus it began to be thought of as disrespectful to take it off. It also could be dangerous to take off a helmet in battle with gunfire and other shrapnel about."
So that evolved into a tradition for civilians too (actually, i glimpsed during my search the military at some point demanded it from civilians, which is when it jumped from military personnel to the general public). Almost every cultural practice or tradition has a more practical origin.

exactly. outdated and nonsensical in today's culture.

But what you are necessarily arguing for is no culture or social traditions at all.... ? Because that is how all cultural behaviours and manners develop. . If I'm hearing you right, you essentially want all manners and cultural practices that evolved over time to be thrown out the window unless they still have some validity in terms of sanitation.

no, it's not that black and white. I teach my kids manners, I think those are important. it's important to show respect and thanks to others. But taking off your hat shows respect for.....a king from 500 years ago. that's my point. if the custom is outdated and no real-world applicability anymore, I don't see why people get up in arms about it.

my dinner table has no wobbly legs. so there's no reason for my kid not to be comfortable when eating.

Because almost nobody knows the origins of the tradition. All most people know is that it is how you show respect for the national anthem being sung. Simple as that. So when they see someone not doing it, it stands to reason that they view that as a lack of respect. Makes sense.

I don't consider ignorance as "making sense". never once do most of these people think to themselves "but why DO we do this?". I'm not saying I'm smarter than the next person, but I have always been the type that questions things; it's where my atheism took shape. I do my best not to judge someone on something simply because "that's just the way it has always been". One of my most hated sayings around the office is "well that's the way we've always/used to done/do it". Yeah, so fucking what? Ever thought that maybe it wasn't the best way to do it? or that doing it that way 20 years ago made sense, but now it doesn't?

that's just how my mind operates. I don't get all bent out of shape about what others are doing if it has literally zero effect on me. Which this hat business is. it effects zero people. literally zero.

PJ_Soul · May 2017

I meant that their thought process makes logical sense. But really, do you seriously expect everyone to know the origin of every single cultural behaviour we have? It seems a bit unfair to call out ignorance on that one. It kind of ignores the basic tenets of culture and human nature IMO. I understand your argument theoretically, but I don't think it stands up to plain old reality. Your expectations are wildly unrealistic here.

FWIW, I did know there was some historical explanation behind the act (just because I know almost every social norm has something like that behind it), and I definitely still do think those who don't remove their hats during the National Anthem are rude. They understand the meaning it conveys as well as the rest of us do, and I do think it is a willful act of disrespect and social impropriety... which I even find interesting myself, because in many ways I do not follow social norms at all. But when it comes to basic manners (and I think this issue is in that category), I'm actually still a bit of a stickler. I only start deviating when it actually has a real impact on people's lives.

my2hands · May 2017

4 pages about wearing a hat?

George Costanza reference should have ended this thread lol

Please rise and remove your caps

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