Obamacare is a mess

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

correct. you simply will not get triaged with anything less than an emergency.

To be fair... I can cite several cases of ERs sending people home only to have them die there in BC.

Our system needs a bit of help. It's good, but it's not great.

My daughter has had to undergo extensive help with a hip ailment. She's young and this is an athletic injury. The wait times for specialists, MRIs (2 of them) and follow ups have been painful.

really? never heard of that. there was one case in winnipeg that got global attention for the guy in the wheelchair with a bladder infection, sitting there for 2 days and then dying. why have i not heard of these several cases in bc?

specialists are a whole different ball of wax. one of the issues with socialized healthcare. people do abuse those (i know one person in particular who demands them because of some new sickness she doesn't have, only to cancel when she arrives-it's maddening and she should be billed for it).

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

correct. you simply will not get triaged with anything less than an emergency.

To be fair... I can cite several cases of ERs sending people home only to have them die there in BC.

Our system needs a bit of help. It's good, but it's not great.

My daughter has had to undergo extensive help with a hip ailment. She's young and this is an athletic injury. The wait times for specialists, MRIs (2 of them) and follow ups have been painful.

really? never heard of that. there was one case in winnipeg that got global attention for the guy in the wheelchair with a bladder infection, sitting there for 2 days and then dying. why have i not heard of these several cases in bc?

specialists are a whole different ball of wax. one of the issues with socialized healthcare. people do abuse those (i know one person in particular who demands them because of some new sickness she doesn't have, only to cancel when she arrives-it's maddening and she should be billed for it).

Hugh...

I did a quick 'British Columbia emergency room death' google search and... well... look for yourself.

Not good.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2017/04/04/Crisis-in-BC-Emergency-Rooms/

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2017/04/04/Crisis-in-BC-Emergency-Rooms/

brutal

mace1229 · May 2017

benjs said:

mace1229 said:

CM189191 said:

unsung said:

Gern Blansten said:

unsung said:

Nobody is denying coverage. Nobody wants people to be denied coverage. How it is funded is the disagreement.

I don't care if a woman wants an abortion, her choice. I don't want to pay for it. That is not a war on women or denying them healthcare.

The GOP denies coverage by making premiums unreachable to those with pre-existing conditions. You are falling victim to the ignorance of assuming "coverage is available" is the same as "all will be covered."

Insuring pre existing conditions is not insurance. It is a gift. Someone has to pay for it.

Progressives are afraid those who need help aren't getting it.
Conservatives are afraid those who are getting help don't deserve it.
Faux-bertarians are just afraid anyone is getting help at all.

If everyone is covered from day 1, there is no such thing as a preexisting condition. The whole concept goes away. Simply being alive is a preexisting condition that will eventually require healthcare, to everyone, to some degree.

I would correct your statement to:
Conservatives are afraid those who are getting help will begin to rely on it, and eventually abuse it. Like going to the ER for the common cold because they know it is free that way. It isn't a matter of deserving, its reliance and abusing.

I agree on the preexisting part. That is an old way of looking at health care. Back when most could afford regular care out of pocket, and health "insurance" was just that. Coverage for catastrophic events and big bills due to accidents, but the regular doctor visit wasn't a ridiculous $300 for a 5 minute visit. The first companies were hospitals themselves, not a third party making a profit off of your health. A preexisting condition shouldn't be that big of a deal if you could afford your own visits and care. The average cost per family is about $20,000 a year in just premiums now. Add on co-pays and deductibles on top of that too. We've gone a long way from covering accidents or even essentially pre-paying for medical expenses based on average use which is the format of the first healthcare really was, to now a third party profiting from it. So many more middle-men need to get paid, and CEOs making millions who don't supply anything of real benefit, and that is where this money is going.
I don't like Obamacare, not because of Obamacare itself and people getting covered, but because of the greedy healthcare agencies that rip off people in need, and Obamacare forces us to buy into that. Many hospitals are actually forced to charge their patients more due to their contracts with the healthcare providers, and then pay a co-pay and deductible of that bill, which results in payments that are even higher than someone uninsured would pay. Its ridiculous, greedy and doesn't work.

If your first paragraph is seriously a concern, maybe you ought to drive a few hours to Canada and see how THAT DOESN'T EVER HAPPEN. This is the most asinine comment I've ever seen. Two ways you get into ER - either an ambulance qualifies you as needing the service en route or at your doorstep, or a front-desk doctor on call does. Do people just walk into emergency rooms, no questions asked, in America?

It does happen here. Ask anyone who works in an ER in the states. It may not happen there, but it is very common in the US. People abuse ER all the time because they are not allow to turn patients away (and they shouldn't). So people who don't have insurance will go to the ER instead of a regular doctor who can turn patients away, or people who have government paid insurance go to it for unnecessary reasons if they never see the bill (go to the ER for a cold on Sunday because they don't want to wait until Monday or miss work). Happens all the time here. So I don't know how anyone can call it asinine when it happens on a daily basis here.
A better argument could be if everyone has healthcare, then there would be no reason to abuse the ER, that logic makes some sense. But to disregard what is already happening and call it asinine is asinine itself.

ponytd · May 2017

Yes, there are tons of abuses with our healthcare system. Way too many people go to the ER for a cold or the flu, and many of them are on Medicaid or smaller plans. I can't say for certain how many go on an exchange plan, but I'm sure there are plenty that do. The company I work for this year instituted a policy that if you go to the ER for anything other than an emergency (accident, heart attack, stroke, broken bones, etc) you will be 100% liable for all bills. They won't pay a dime. Every plan should be that way with the only exception is if there is no Urgent Care or Walk-in clinic in your area.

As far as the pre-existing conditions goes, yes, if everyone had coverage from day 1, there would be no pre-existing conditions, but it doesn't work that way. People change jobs, or get fired and may not be able find a new job that gives them coverage and they have to change plans. That's a sticky situation. While I'm somewhat ok with someone being charged more because of a pre-existing condition, it should still be affordable. No one should have to go broke because of medical bills. And the list that the GOP health plan of their pre-existing conditions was absurd. Someone who is a victim of domestic abuse or rape, should never be charged more for their health plan. Nor should anyone who was born with a defect or any illness/disease they've had since birth. But, if someone smokes for 30+ years and develops lung cancer, they probably should have to pay more

mace1229 · May 2017

I dont think people believe many people die waiting to be seen in the ER, here or in Canada. If it isnt life threatening it can take hours to be seen though, life threatening conditions obviously have priority. But that can leave people in serious pain, but non life threatening, waiting hours to be seen.
For the record I never said I fear those things. I was just commenting on a previous statement. I see more conservatives fear the abuse of the system (because it actually is already happening here now, regardless what happens in Canada) over only wanting those who "deserve" to be covered being the only ones covered.
I dont think universal care would be worse off. The biggest concern I hear, far bigger than people abusing it, is taxes. Taxes would definitely be higher, but probably not as high as what I am currently paying in monthly premiums anyway.
Personally I think a combination of our system integrated into government sponsored. I see nothing wrong with asking people who get more out of it to pay a little more, as long as it is still affordable. Instead of a third party making billions off it, make government the "insurer." Have reasonable co-pays, so those who are healthy and never see the Dr end up paying a little less than those who do. Avoid the $3,000 MRI bill, and just pay a $50 copay. Still have ERs with a higher copay (maybe $100), so those only with a true emergency will use it over waiting until regular hours and keep them from being over crowded and lower to wait times. I'd definitely be will to pay double co-pay for an ER visit if it meant lower wait times.

Gern Blansten · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

correct. you simply will not get triaged with anything less than an emergency.

To be fair... I can cite several cases of ERs sending people home only to have them die there in BC.

Our system needs a bit of help. It's good, but it's not great.

My daughter has had to undergo extensive help with a hip ailment. She's young and this is an athletic injury. The wait times for specialists, MRIs (2 of them) and follow ups have been painful.

really? never heard of that. there was one case in winnipeg that got global attention for the guy in the wheelchair with a bladder infection, sitting there for 2 days and then dying. why have i not heard of these several cases in bc?

specialists are a whole different ball of wax. one of the issues with socialized healthcare. people do abuse those (i know one person in particular who demands them because of some new sickness she doesn't have, only to cancel when she arrives-it's maddening and she should be billed for it).

Hugh...

I did a quick 'British Columbia emergency room death' google search and... well... look for yourself.

Not good.

That happens in the USA too....my co-workers sister was having chest pain a few years ago and went to the local ER. Classic symptoms...chest pain, left shoulder pain, etc. They told her it was acid reflux and sent her home. The next morning she collapsed and died next to her car in the garage.

mace1229 · May 2017

Gern Blansten said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

correct. you simply will not get triaged with anything less than an emergency.

To be fair... I can cite several cases of ERs sending people home only to have them die there in BC.

Our system needs a bit of help. It's good, but it's not great.

My daughter has had to undergo extensive help with a hip ailment. She's young and this is an athletic injury. The wait times for specialists, MRIs (2 of them) and follow ups have been painful.

really? never heard of that. there was one case in winnipeg that got global attention for the guy in the wheelchair with a bladder infection, sitting there for 2 days and then dying. why have i not heard of these several cases in bc?

specialists are a whole different ball of wax. one of the issues with socialized healthcare. people do abuse those (i know one person in particular who demands them because of some new sickness she doesn't have, only to cancel when she arrives-it's maddening and she should be billed for it).

Hugh...

I did a quick 'British Columbia emergency room death' google search and... well... look for yourself.

Not good.

That happens in the USA too....my co-workers sister was having chest pain a few years ago and went to the local ER. Classic symptoms...chest pain, left shoulder pain, etc. They told her it was acid reflux and sent her home. The next morning she collapsed and died next to her car in the garage.

It definitely happens. But it isnt a case of "we're too busy, have a seat and we'll get to you if you're still alive."
It is usually the result of a misdiagnosis, or misinterpreting symptoms of something more serious. Anything serious, and recognized as serious, is always addressed immediately anywhere you are. If not, that is probably some form of malpractice.
No matter where you are and what sort of coverage is available, that will unfortunately always happen. Go to the ER, misdiagnose symptoms, and results in death.
I would assume this would happen much less frequently if ERs we not crowded with non-emergency patience however. And ER doctors and nurses weren't use to see people in the ER with the common cold, heart burn, headaches, etc.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

Many times, doctors and nurses assume the worse of people coming in and complaining of stuff. There are a lot of people that run to them the moment their nose starts running and doctors grow a little insensitive over time.

If hypochondriacs would understand that they will survive the common cold... and that knee pain isn't a ruptured ligament... we'd be better for it: doctors wouldn't be so dismissive and our system wouldn't be so taxed.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Many times, doctors and nurses assume the worse of people coming in and complaining of stuff. There are a lot of people that run to them the moment their nose starts running and doctors grow a little insensitive over time.

If hypochondriacs would understand that they will survive the common cold... and that knee pain isn't a ruptured ligament... we'd be better for it: doctors wouldn't be so dismissive and our system wouldn't be so taxed.

easy to say. honestly, many emergency illnesses can manifest themselves in many different ways. the websites that people look to for guidance don't help. they always tell you the worst case scenario, and off to the ER they go. there is really too much information out there, but i'm sure that easily available info has also saved some lives.

rgambs · May 2017

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

agreed. you don't fuck around with young kids. things can go south quickly.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

ok, I can't seriously believe your example actually happens.

CM189191 · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

ok, I can't seriously believe your example actually happens.

Let's assume this is true. So what? You're going to deny millions of people health care because of some bogeyman story about a moron who went to the ER when he should have gone to the Urgent Care Clinic?

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

CM189191 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

ok, I can't seriously believe your example actually happens.

Let's assume this is true. So what? You're going to deny millions of people health care because of some bogeyman story about a moron who went to the ER when he should have gone to the Urgent Care Clinic?

of course not.

mace1229 · May 2017

CM189191 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

ok, I can't seriously believe your example actually happens.

Let's assume this is true. So what? You're going to deny millions of people health care because of some bogeyman story about a moron who went to the ER when he should have gone to the Urgent Care Clinic?

I didn't take that as we should deny people coverage. I certainly didnt mean to imply we should deny coverage when I mentioned a similar problem. It's not a single guy. I know quite a few people who work in hospitals and they all say it is a big problem, and bigger in poorer areas.
Just pointing out what is wrong and concerns that people have. Legitimate concerns of abuse cause by unnecessary use of the ER, that doesn't mean anyone wants to see people go uninsured or untreated.
Just a quick google search had multiple sources quoting it at 71% of ER visits could have waited for a primary care. The most conservative estimate I saw was still 12%, and this is from a source clearly trying to debunk the myth of ER over-use. So its probably somewhere in the middle, but even 12% is still a high number. I didn't much faith into that article since they also try to argue ER visits aren't really more expensive that a primary care doctor visit anyway, and that's just dumb. But here it is.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/03/are_most_emergency_room_visits_really_unnecessary.html

They counter-argue that most wasted ER visits are uninsured. I agree that many are, many have insurance who abuse it, and many of them are the over-insured. That is a ward of the state and the guardian doesn't have to see the bill, or someone with such a great plan the ER visit is the same copay as a primary care visit. So it isn't all the uninsured, but it is mostly those who have no accountability for their healthcare decisions because they never see the difference financially-its already taken care of by someone else. So there's good reason to at least be concerned that with free healthcare this may not change in our culture even if it is not a problem somewhere else. Even at 12%, that is still a lot of wasted money and care and room to improve.

If we're going to revamp healthcare, we may as well redo it so it is the best system we can have with what we have to work with, and not just just settle for something that works okay for someone else. If we know ER visits are already a problem here, why should it not be addressed if we're talking about creating a new system?

That is why I like the idea of not universal free healthcare, but the idea that the government will act as a non-profit insurer, and we as citizens have nominal co-pays based on the care. Dr visit $25, ER $75 and so on. Even make it $10 and $30 for families with an income under 40k or something. Basically just like a universal system, but require those who use it more to pay just a little more and help keep the cost down for everyone and hold people accountable for choosing the ER over primary care or making unnecessary visits. A non-profit insurer would make premiums a fraction of what they are now, which could just be taken out in the form of taxes instead of an even larger chunk from my paycheck.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

ok, I can't seriously believe your example actually happens.

You don't think there are hypochondriacs that access our medical system repeatedly and when not necessary?

My example was obviously trite, but abuse exists at a level that is far greater than what is being acknowledged here.

I'm saying we live with it (what choice do we have?), but it is problematic to some degree.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

2 parents with advanced medical training and experience, and we still took our 2 year old son to the ER when he had croup. Knowing what it was and how seldom it has drastic consequences didn't matter much when he was hyperventilating and struggling to breathe through coughs.

Then again, there are some legitimately stupid people out there. 59 million at least lol

Air is fundamental.

Shortness of breath and persistent cough is a far cry from a middle aged person running to Emergency for the 6th time in 6 months because their nose is running.

ok, I can't seriously believe your example actually happens.

You don't think there are hypochondriacs that access our medical system repeatedly and when not necessary?

My example was obviously trite, but abuse exists at a level that is far greater than what is being acknowledged here.

I'm saying we live with it (what choice do we have?), but it is problematic to some degree.

I know there are. I was speaking directly to your example as you presented it.

of course it is problematic to a degree, but anytime you have something that is perceived to be free, it will be. especially where your health is concerned. how do you curb it? I don't know. there have been attempts made, whether those attempts have yielded any measurable results I don't know.

Obamacare is a mess

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