America's Gun Violence

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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,427
    I was surprised to hear a sign could make it illegal. If I have a government issued permit that I applied and paid for, took a class and passed a background check, why can a private business owner take that away? Doesn't make sense to me.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,485
    edited April 2017
    mace1229 said:

    I was surprised to hear a sign could make it illegal. If I have a government issued permit that I applied and paid for, took a class and passed a background check, why can a private business owner take that away? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Well, ultimately a private property owner should always trump whatever government says. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. Agree or disagree.

    It is like baking a cake for the gay couple. Go find another bakery. Respect the property owner.


    Concealed means concealed.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,427
    unsung said:

    mace1229 said:

    I was surprised to hear a sign could make it illegal. If I have a government issued permit that I applied and paid for, took a class and passed a background check, why can a private business owner take that away? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Well, ultimately a private property owner should always trump whatever government says. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. Agree or disagree.

    It is like baking a cake for the gay couple. Go find another bakery. Respect the property owner.


    Concealed means concealed.
    It is different when you run a business for the public. I would agree if a baker can't decide who to bake cakes for, then a restaurant owner shouldn't be allowed to trump government either.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,145
    unsung said:

    dudeman said:

    Hopefully, one day, people will realize that "Gun Free Zones" encourage attacks rather than prevent them.

    Fish in a barrel.
    Is there data to support the claim that gun free zones encourage attacks?
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 1,875
    The last time I knew, 92% of mass shootings occurred in gun free zones. I'm pretty sure there is a source linked earlier in this thread.
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,354
    dudeman said:

    The last time I knew, 92% of mass shootings occurred in gun free zones. I'm pretty sure there is a source linked earlier in this thread.

    Well that's helpful, lol.
    So what about nightclubs, which now seem to be a target? We want everyone packing heat in nightclubs now?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 3,873
    So I would think, regardless of statistics, that gun free zones would attract more nut cases with intent to kill masses of people. That's like having it known that certain banks do not have security guards, and expecting those not to be targeted for more robberies... :i_dunno:
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  • ponytdponytd NashvillePosts: 542
    mace1229 said:

    I was surprised to hear a sign could make it illegal. If I have a government issued permit that I applied and paid for, took a class and passed a background check, why can a private business owner take that away? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Not sure what the laws are in your state, but it may not technically be illegal. In TN, it's only illegal to carry (even if you have a permit) in a few areas, i.e. court that is in session, schools, drinking at a bar. However, business owners can put up signs saying they do not want firearms on their premises. If a business owner puts up one of these signs, then they are liable for said permit holder if they are injured or killed by violence while on that property. If you do not put up a sign and openly allow any permit holder to carry a firearm on your property, you are immune from any harm that that person may endure from any form of violence that may happen to them while on your property (I think that law only applies to permit holders and not the general public, but not 100% sure)

  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,427
    ponytd said:

    mace1229 said:

    I was surprised to hear a sign could make it illegal. If I have a government issued permit that I applied and paid for, took a class and passed a background check, why can a private business owner take that away? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Not sure what the laws are in your state, but it may not technically be illegal. In TN, it's only illegal to carry (even if you have a permit) in a few areas, i.e. court that is in session, schools, drinking at a bar. However, business owners can put up signs saying they do not want firearms on their premises. If a business owner puts up one of these signs, then they are liable for said permit holder if they are injured or killed by violence while on that property. If you do not put up a sign and openly allow any permit holder to carry a firearm on your property, you are immune from any harm that that person may endure from any form of violence that may happen to them while on your property (I think that law only applies to permit holders and not the general public, but not 100% sure)

    It was illegal until a few years ago. If a store owner put a sign requesting no guns, then it would be illegal to carry even with a permit. From what I heard the Aurora shooting helped change that.
    I specifically asked the instructor that question, because I thought those signs only applied to open carry, and I was told no, any form of carry, including concealed, it was illegal and could be charged with a crime for doing so.
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,859
    mace1229 said:

    ponytd said:

    mace1229 said:

    I was surprised to hear a sign could make it illegal. If I have a government issued permit that I applied and paid for, took a class and passed a background check, why can a private business owner take that away? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Not sure what the laws are in your state, but it may not technically be illegal. In TN, it's only illegal to carry (even if you have a permit) in a few areas, i.e. court that is in session, schools, drinking at a bar. However, business owners can put up signs saying they do not want firearms on their premises. If a business owner puts up one of these signs, then they are liable for said permit holder if they are injured or killed by violence while on that property. If you do not put up a sign and openly allow any permit holder to carry a firearm on your property, you are immune from any harm that that person may endure from any form of violence that may happen to them while on your property (I think that law only applies to permit holders and not the general public, but not 100% sure)

    It was illegal until a few years ago. If a store owner put a sign requesting no guns, then it would be illegal to carry even with a permit. From what I heard the Aurora shooting helped change that.
    I specifically asked the instructor that question, because I thought those signs only applied to open carry, and I was told no, any form of carry, including concealed, it was illegal and could be charged with a crime for doing so.
    In Texas, it has to be a very specific sign (30.06 or 30.07) meeting guidelines such as font size and being hung in an easily viewed entrance point. A "no guns allowed" sign does not meet the legal criteria for preventing someone from legally carrying a firearm, it is merely seen as a request or suggestion from a legal standpoint. That being said, if you refuse to leave a place of business when asked, other legal factors may come into play.
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,485
    edited April 2017

    unsung said:

    dudeman said:

    Hopefully, one day, people will realize that "Gun Free Zones" encourage attacks rather than prevent them.

    Fish in a barrel.
    Is there data to support the claim that gun free zones encourage attacks?
    :weary:
    Post edited by unsung on
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,485
    PJ_Soul said:

    dudeman said:

    The last time I knew, 92% of mass shootings occurred in gun free zones. I'm pretty sure there is a source linked earlier in this thread.

    Well that's helpful, lol.
    So what about nightclubs, which now seem to be a target? We want everyone packing heat in nightclubs now?
    LOL @ "packing heat".
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,697

    unsung said:

    dudeman said:

    Hopefully, one day, people will realize that "Gun Free Zones" encourage attacks rather than prevent them.

    Fish in a barrel.
    Is there data to support the claim that gun free zones encourage attacks?
    No. The fact that the majority of the spree killings occur in those zones is reflective of who/what the shooters want to target. School shooters from Columbine up chose the school as the setting because of the people there and what the school represented, not because it happened to be a gun-free zone
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,485
    Wow, someone in the heads of a bunch of killers.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,145
    unsung said:

    Wow, someone in the heads of a bunch of killers.

    Which someone? The ones saying they target gun free zones specifically, or the ones saying places where people congregate in large groups also happen to be gun free zones?
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 1,875
    PJ_Soul said:

    dudeman said:

    The last time I knew, 92% of mass shootings occurred in gun free zones. I'm pretty sure there is a source linked earlier in this thread.

    Well that's helpful, lol.
    So what about nightclubs, which now seem to be a target? We want everyone packing heat in nightclubs now?
    No. Not everyone. Those who have gone through the steps to obtain a permit to carry concealed should be able to, IMO.

    These people are statistically more law abiding than the average civilian, have at least some degree of firearms training and have passed a criminal background check.
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 20,867
    Gun violence will always be part of our country it's just the way this country works guns are part of the fabric ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 1,875

    Gun violence will always be part of our country it's just the way this country works guns are part of the fabric ...

    I'm afraid you're right.
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 19,555
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 20,867
    dudeman said:

    Gun violence will always be part of our country it's just the way this country works guns are part of the fabric ...

    I'm afraid you're right.
    As long as gun rights don't trample any of my rights I say go at it own as many weapons as you feel the need too ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,485

    dudeman said:

    Gun violence will always be part of our country it's just the way this country works guns are part of the fabric ...

    I'm afraid you're right.
    As long as gun rights don't trample any of my rights I say go at it own as many weapons as you feel the need too ...
    And that is exactly the idea.
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    My whole country is a gun free zone, funny how that seems to work for us...
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,859
    Why people should be concerned about those "databases" and regulations surrounding mental health/firearm ownership.
    https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/04/04/state-forced-return-500-guns-incompetent-doj-raid/?stv=a
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,697
    edited April 2017
    PJPOWER said:

    Why people should be concerned about those "databases" and regulations surrounding mental health/firearm ownership.
    https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/04/04/state-forced-return-500-guns-incompetent-doj-raid/?stv=a

    Even that very biased article doesn't demonstrate a reason to be concerned about regulations surrounding mental health/firearm ownership per se, just that they have to be properly followed and enforced.

    And the fact that the individual in question has not had a criminal conviction for a violent act does not in any way mean he isn't or hasn't been violent. It's a spurious argument to make, particularly when we are talking about people with mental health issues, where violent acts may well lead to admission to hospital for assessment and treatment rather than a criminal conviction. At least, that's the way it generally should go, though admittedly that often isn't the way it goes, particularly in the US but often in Canada, too.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,859
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 20,867
    unsung said:

    dudeman said:

    Gun violence will always be part of our country it's just the way this country works guns are part of the fabric ...

    I'm afraid you're right.
    As long as gun rights don't trample any of my rights I say go at it own as many weapons as you feel the need too ...
    And that is exactly the idea.
    Whoa I can't believe I actually posted something that you agree on ..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,145
    PJPOWER said:
    Did I read it right that they're charging the driver with murder? Seems odd.
  • rssesqrssesq Fairfield CountyPosts: 3,299
    Felony murder rule. If you and I rob Uncle Irving's liquor store and unc Irving pulls out a magnum and shoots and kills me or any bystander in thestore, YOU GET THE BODY not Irving
    "Apology made to whoever it pleases, still they got me like Jesus." Chuck D
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,859
    edited April 2017
    rssesq said:

    Felony murder rule. If you and I rob Uncle Irving's liquor store and unc Irving pulls out a magnum and shoots and kills me or any bystander in thestore, YOU GET THE BODY not Irving

    Right, if the crime that someone is committing directly results in the deaths of accomplices or anyone else, the responsibility for those deaths is of the person/people committing the crime.
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,145
    PJPOWER said:

    rssesq said:

    Felony murder rule. If you and I rob Uncle Irving's liquor store and unc Irving pulls out a magnum and shoots and kills me or any bystander in thestore, YOU GET THE BODY not Irving

    Right, if the crime that someone is committing directly results in the deaths of accomplices or anyone else, the responsibility for those deaths is of the person/people committing the crime.
    It seems like it wouldn't fit the definition of 1st degree murder, though. Maybe more amt lawyers can chime in.
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