Hillary won more votes for President

tonifig8 said:

what dreams said:

tonifig8 said:

WhatYouTaughtMe said:

I would agree that it takes "balls" to call yourself progressive while hoping Trump gets elected and then impeached. You realize that would possibly make Pence the president, right? How many "progressive" ideas do you think he will ram through if there is a republican majority in the house?

Ask Germ how well Pence is working out for him. He gets to sit at his computer all day and watch the news.... That's not to bad.

Look if we win the Senate and if we pick up a some W 's in the house then we should be ok. Times are changing. People are actually voting for change and politicians are losing their long standing positions. We either ride this all the way through or we settle for the same old shit.

Like I said, I'm a die hard progressive, but I'm also tired of this shit and I firmly believe that Clinton is unethical and bad for our country.

I've never sided with republicans, maybe on some spending cuts and preserving the constitution, but 99.99% of the time I have devoted my time, resources, and energy to progressive movements. That's a damn fact and you can look through my history or check my record. I use good judgment to promote progress. Unfortunately here we have a serious situation on our hands and we're going to have to make a sacrifice. That simple.

Picking up the Senate (by one stinking seat at most) under a Trump presidency, with a few more Dems in the House won't do anything for progress. All it means is more gridlock. The Republicans will not impeach Trump just to impeach him. He'd have to commit a crime while in office first. Even if he did commit a crime that the FBI proves to be true, we'd still have divided government with Pence in charge. And if the Dems win the House in 2018 (which I think is within reach), we'd still have Trump/Pence and make no progress. Sorry, but your strategy is a losing strategy no matter how you cut it. At least with Clinton in office, there is a chance of two years of Dem-controlled government to get something done if we look forward to the mid-term.

Honestly, a vote for Stein would be more anti-Clinton than a Trump vote, since neither candidate is going to win. At least a Stein vote would register your dissatisfaction more clearly with the party you're more closely aligned with. When you vote for Trump, your progressive voice gets misinterpreted as support for what he stands for. You don't get to check a box that says "This is just a protest vote." A vote means (or should mean, in my view) that you support one candidate's platform more than the other's. Why would you want your vote to be part of that Trump count instead of the Stein count if the Stein agenda is really the one you support? It just doesn't make sense.

So in addition to not understanding your strategy, I don't understand your justification for voting for Trump. I'm not name calling or trying to start a fight with you. I'm just encouraging you to think more clearly about how to protest the system and how political strategy actually works. We don't go forward by putting the backwards candidates in office. If you really wanted to move forward beyond Clinton, you would best express that by voting for Stein.

very thoughtful post. Much appreciated. I know we've had some tough exchanges.

I'll keep my reply short and simple. I gave Jill S. a lot of thought and started to dedicate time, energy, and resources to her. However my inner judgment wasn't strong with her- She doesn't/didn't seem tough enough or as knowledgeable as I hoped for. I love her passion and I love the stuff she's doing, but still there's something missing for me. I'm a progressive, but I'm also about individualism and preserving the constitution/laws. I'm not crazy about big govt. only when it comes to social issues. I'm a big split between Ron Paul and a real Progressive Obama. Anyhow....

The DNC/Clinton could give two shits about a protest vote, using Stein, after all their goal is power. They want the highest office and they;re going to do what ever it takes to get there, as it's been made clear with the leaks. Considering Hillary's private policy and public policy... her inconsistencies on many issues over the years demonstrates to me that she isn't about genuine change or transparencies, its become pretty clear that she isn't going to care about progressive causes... She's going to care about her personal desires and those of her donors. Example, she received tons of cash by a donor because she said she would back GMO labeling, but then received tons more cash from another group and changed her stance... or made suggestions she would support this other Non GMO's group with more cash... That's been pretty consistent. She said in public that her stance on the TPP has changed, only to gain Sanders supporters, but then as the leaks reveal it was all BS. It's a number of reasons regarding Clinton... Most have been discussed up and down and now with these new leaks it's become completely clear that she is the greater evil.

I'm not looking for a progressive agenda, nor do I have hopes to make any progress in 2017. I don't think we could accomplish that with Clinton or with Trump. The country is crazy divided. Progressives on here are crazy divided and outside of this forum there are progressives such as myself lining up with hardcore conservatives to defeat Clinton and then go after trump. It's crazy, But true... and this isn't some facebook crap or some social media shit.... This is real people coming together. I've never been a part of anything like this before, but it feels right and it's actually happening. My progressive causes will have to be placed on hold. Look at immigration, look at healtcare, look at citizens united, look at the NSA, look at the patriot act, look at Wall St , look at Wells fargo, look at the bombs being dropped, look at the innocent children dying on the streets, look at the rich getting richer, look at pay equality, look at trade, look at our govt., GITMO, secret courts, spying, drones, look at our relationships with the world, look at all the fallout, look at the primaries, look at our politics, look at our candidates,look at immigration, look at the war on drugs, terrorism, etc.. etc..etc.... It's shit.. and this is under Obama. Now I'm not saying the world is on fire, nor am I being a conspiracy nut... my life will probably not be affected by either candidate, however the future of my country and our faith in our democracy will be rattled badly. And before someone replies with, "the gop;s number 1 goal was to make sure obama fails" - yes I'm aware of what Mitch M. said and yes I remember John B. and all the shit they put the prez through. I was fighting the good fight along side the prez.

A vote for Stein is a vote for Clinton in my opinion. If you really want to protest vote, then vote for trump. Because that's the only way your vote will count. DNC want's the "W" they don't care about the person or the cause.
I can still say I've never voted for a Republican (sarcasm- most conservatives don't consider trump to be a true republican).
We will win the senate and we will do good enough in the house. A lame duck session for four years isn't that bad. We will regroup and vote out a lot of the garbage that's out there. The world will not end if trump wins... trust me. The media, the fbi, the DOJ, and the PEOPLE will keep him in line and send his ass packing.

I rather focus on Clinton.. I appreciate the post.. it was well delivered and very much respected. Hope my rambling wasn't to confusing and all over the place... Spending way to much time on the net.
OT.

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

The FBI hates Hillary.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Of course the fbi wants Trump so they can carry out his authoritarian directives. These releases are being done to sway the election.

Gern Blansten said:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/4/13500018/clinton-email-scandal-bullshit



Great summary....this is what a lot of us have been saying all along.