Police abuse

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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Go Beavers said:

    Murder is often an overreaction to a perceived threat.

    Yeah sure. But let's not discount all the events that led up to that moment.

    Parked vehicle in the middle of a highway. Man acting 'out of sorts'. Man disobeying law enforcement checking on vehicle stopped in middle of highway. Man moving to parked vehicle ignoring police commands. Man reaches inside vehicle once gets to vehicle.

    As I said, with four police officers... I think non lethal tactics could easily have been employed and I wish they were; however, it all could have been prevented if the guy had just been compliant.

    There are two schools of thought for cops which are intensifying every event:

    1. Cops are ultra cautious with people given recent cop shootings and the general cop hating attitudes which are prevalent.

    2. Cops are ultra cautious to not wrongfully shoot someone given the exposure they'll face in light of doing so.

    Which school of thought one might subscribe to really depends on each individual cop's perspective (shaped by their experiences to this point in time). Someone earlier shared a story where one of their friends got the shit kicked out of her and was badly hurt. She likely isn't going to take much of a chance in a similar situation. And I wouldn't blame her.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,588
    And your wish for non lethal tactics would be the truth much more often if there was consequences for police over-reactions.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Go Beavers said:

    And your wish for non lethal tactics would be the truth much more often if there was consequences for police over-reactions.

    I hear what you're saying. But it's a double edged sword: we ask these people to do the job... and ask them to take risks when it might be their life at stake?

    Would it be preferable for you if patience became the tactic, fewer wrongful shootings occurred, only there were more cop deaths given errors in assessment of risk given the latitude police are demanded to provide?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,846
    Go Beavers said:

    mace1229 said:

    Cliffy6745 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    unsung said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    So....apprently you can be executed if you don't follow orders from police, even when you are a threat to no one.

    People should be allowed to tell cops to go stuff it up their hairy as**s. Why should we have to listen to them?
    Are you serious?
    No.

    I find the idea that cops should just let people go on whatever terms they dictate... when they don't feel like being detained... is completely absurd.

    It's not that gawddamn hard to comply. You're tempting fate when you don't.
    Do you know what probable cause is?
    Question time. Great!

    Answer: yes

    Question: do you understand the threat officers face in the line of duty?
    What is considered enough of a threat to kill someone? Honest question. I would argue until someone walking away from you with their hands up towards a car does something sudden or reaches, that is not enough to kill someone. The officers sign up for that threat the first day they show up at the academy and you can't kill someone the second you get scared.
    Most definitions would be fear of death or great injury to you or someone else. Most cases walking away would not count as a great threat, but if you had reason to believe there was a weapon in the car he was walking toward, that could easily be argued (not saying there just, just answering the question).

    It is very difficult to prove what a person was feeling. In many cases, officer or civilian, it is the first few sentences in the statement given that determines the level of threat. Two exact same scenarios may have 2 different outcomes based on the person's statement. One person breaks into a house, the owner says "I was so scared, even though he turned around I just had this feeling he was coming back and all I could think about were my kids upstairs so I just I shot." He may get away with it. The next person may say "My house was broken in last week and I know it was him, he wasn't going to break into my house ever again!" probably would be charged with murder. I've seen cases where someone shot in the back and no charges were filed, and some where they were shot in the front and he was charged with murder.

    I had a friend who thought some local kids were breaking into his house. He used some racial slurs describing how he would protect himself and I told him if it comes to that, don't use any of those words. It could even be language like that that would sway a prosecutor that you weren't really in fear but acted out of anger, even though they were breaking into your house.
    I imagine the cop who shot the guy walking to his car felt threatened, the problem is, due to prejudice blacks are perceived as a greater threat. If he was white, more likely other reasons go through their brain: he's on drugs, he's psychotic, he is deaf etc.
    I've thought the same thing before.
    There are far more great people of all races than bad. But also, per capita there are more violent crimes committed by blacks and attacks on cops than whites. So regardless of training, it is only natural to be more cautious when approaching someone of color when you are a police officer. Not saying its right, its just reality.
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,588
    mace1229 said:

    Go Beavers said:

    mace1229 said:

    Cliffy6745 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    unsung said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    So....apprently you can be executed if you don't follow orders from police, even when you are a threat to no one.

    People should be allowed to tell cops to go stuff it up their hairy as**s. Why should we have to listen to them?
    Are you serious?
    No.

    I find the idea that cops should just let people go on whatever terms they dictate... when they don't feel like being detained... is completely absurd.

    It's not that gawddamn hard to comply. You're tempting fate when you don't.
    Do you know what probable cause is?
    Question time. Great!

    Answer: yes

    Question: do you understand the threat officers face in the line of duty?
    What is considered enough of a threat to kill someone? Honest question. I would argue until someone walking away from you with their hands up towards a car does something sudden or reaches, that is not enough to kill someone. The officers sign up for that threat the first day they show up at the academy and you can't kill someone the second you get scared.
    Most definitions would be fear of death or great injury to you or someone else. Most cases walking away would not count as a great threat, but if you had reason to believe there was a weapon in the car he was walking toward, that could easily be argued (not saying there just, just answering the question).

    It is very difficult to prove what a person was feeling. In many cases, officer or civilian, it is the first few sentences in the statement given that determines the level of threat. Two exact same scenarios may have 2 different outcomes based on the person's statement. One person breaks into a house, the owner says "I was so scared, even though he turned around I just had this feeling he was coming back and all I could think about were my kids upstairs so I just I shot." He may get away with it. The next person may say "My house was broken in last week and I know it was him, he wasn't going to break into my house ever again!" probably would be charged with murder. I've seen cases where someone shot in the back and no charges were filed, and some where they were shot in the front and he was charged with murder.

    I had a friend who thought some local kids were breaking into his house. He used some racial slurs describing how he would protect himself and I told him if it comes to that, don't use any of those words. It could even be language like that that would sway a prosecutor that you weren't really in fear but acted out of anger, even though they were breaking into your house.
    I imagine the cop who shot the guy walking to his car felt threatened, the problem is, due to prejudice blacks are perceived as a greater threat. If he was white, more likely other reasons go through their brain: he's on drugs, he's psychotic, he is deaf etc.
    I've thought the same thing before.
    There are far more great people of all races than bad. But also, per capita there are more violent crimes committed by blacks and attacks on cops than whites. So regardless of training, it is only natural to be more cautious when approaching someone of color when you are a police officer. Not saying its right, its just reality.
    That's one way the prejudice will come to be. It's the cops job to essentially over-ride this prejudice. The dilemma is that this is even harder when under stress, because the brain loses it's ability to make higher level cognitive decisions.
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    JC29856 said:

    http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2016/09/report-disabled-black-man-shot-dead-by-police-while-reading-in-the-car/

    Unless you can't read only a book can be an imminent threat.

    Black guy broke down in road shot is old news, new dead black guy is Keith Lamont Scott.
    Disabled?
    Gun or book?
    Daughter Facebook'd
    Riots
    Tear gas
    Flipped cop cars
    Injured officer
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Okay...

    1. Cops stop at an unusual site: a suv is parked directly in the middle of a two way, single lane highway.

    2. A man approaches the officers, but when they (she) issues commands... he ignores them and walks to his suv.

    3. He continues to ignore them and reaches into his suv for something.

    4. Cops shoot.

    Does this sum it up about right?

    Of course, you would sum it up without a mention of his hands in the air and his slow, deliberate movements.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • hsohi
    hsohi Posts: 1,033
    All this happening under the leadership of a black president. Of course Clinton has all the answers and will bring unity to all something that Obama couldn't. What a joke.
    From the outside looking in Trump is looking more and more better.
    London Ontario 2013, Buffalo New York 2013, Lincoln Nebraska 2014, Quebec City 2016
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited September 2016
    .
    rgambs said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Okay...

    1. Cops stop at an unusual site: a suv is parked directly in the middle of a two way, single lane highway.

    2. A man approaches the officers, but when they (she) issues commands... he ignores them and walks to his suv.

    3. He continues to ignore them and reaches into his suv for something.

    4. Cops shoot.

    Does this sum it up about right?

    Of course, you would sum it up without a mention of his hands in the air and his slow, deliberate movements.
    There was a brief moment when he had his hands in the air as he walked away from the cops (supposedly when he was snubbing their requests) until he dropped them to reach into his vehicle.

    I also didn't mention details like officer had their weapons drawn, his movements were erratic, and other items. Sheesh. Can a guy keep things concise at times or not?
    Post edited by Thirty Bills Unpaid on
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Black men who try to avoid an encounter with Boston police by fleeing may have a legitimate reason to do so — and should not be deemed suspicious — according to a ruling by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court.

    Citing Boston police data and a 2014 report by the ACLU of Massachusetts that found blacks were disproportionately stopped by the city's police, the state’s highest court on Tuesday
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited September 2016
    mace1229 said:

    Go Beavers said:

    mace1229 said:

    Cliffy6745 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    unsung said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    So....apprently you can be executed if you don't follow orders from police, even when you are a threat to no one.

    People should be allowed to tell cops to go stuff it up their hairy as**s. Why should we have to listen to them?
    Are you serious?
    No.

    I find the idea that cops should just let people go on whatever terms they dictate... when they don't feel like being detained... is completely absurd.

    It's not that gawddamn hard to comply. You're tempting fate when you don't.
    Do you know what probable cause is?
    Question time. Great!

    Answer: yes

    Question: do you understand the threat officers face in the line of duty?
    What is considered enough of a threat to kill someone? Honest question. I would argue until someone walking away from you with their hands up towards a car does something sudden or reaches, that is not enough to kill someone. The officers sign up for that threat the first day they show up at the academy and you can't kill someone the second you get scared.
    Most definitions would be fear of death or great injury to you or someone else. Most cases walking away would not count as a great threat, but if you had reason to believe there was a weapon in the car he was walking toward, that could easily be argued (not saying there just, just answering the question).

    It is very difficult to prove what a person was feeling. In many cases, officer or civilian, it is the first few sentences in the statement given that determines the level of threat. Two exact same scenarios may have 2 different outcomes based on the person's statement. One person breaks into a house, the owner says "I was so scared, even though he turned around I just had this feeling he was coming back and all I could think about were my kids upstairs so I just I shot." He may get away with it. The next person may say "My house was broken in last week and I know it was him, he wasn't going to break into my house ever again!" probably would be charged with murder. I've seen cases where someone shot in the back and no charges were filed, and some where they were shot in the front and he was charged with murder.

    I had a friend who thought some local kids were breaking into his house. He used some racial slurs describing how he would protect himself and I told him if it comes to that, don't use any of those words. It could even be language like that that would sway a prosecutor that you weren't really in fear but acted out of anger, even though they were breaking into your house.
    I imagine the cop who shot the guy walking to his car felt threatened, the problem is, due to prejudice blacks are perceived as a greater threat. If he was white, more likely other reasons go through their brain: he's on drugs, he's psychotic, he is deaf etc.
    I've thought the same thing before.
    There are far more great people of all races than bad. But also, per capita there are more violent crimes committed by blacks and attacks on cops than whites. So regardless of training, it is only natural to be more cautious when approaching someone of color when you are a police officer. Not saying its right, its just reality.
    And here is where I'd like to say what I've said before: we are all complicit in this event.

    The routine encounters between cops and black men are only the point if a much bigger problem: the oppression of black people.

    It irritates me to read comments from (presumably) white people that prosper in a white serving society, while afforded hindsight as well as the comfort of their sofa, point fingers at cops for doing a poor job at these encounters.

    Your comment is fair and accurate, but I'd add that the blacks you speak of develop criminal tendencies and hostile attitudes given the alternative is a career at Carl's Jr. Until legitimate opportunity and hope is realistic, nothing will change. For this to happen, meaningful social programs would need to be implemented and that would mean sacrifice on the part of those that wag their fingers at cops (or sit down during national anthems).
    Post edited by Thirty Bills Unpaid on
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Killedbypolice.net adds 6 to the list Sept 20, 2016
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    JC29856 said:

    Killedbypolice.net adds 6 to the list Sept 20, 2016

    Why so much criminal activity on this day? Weird.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,320
    JC29856 said:

    Killedbypolice.net adds 6 to the list Sept 20, 2016

    All six were armed robbers. Five of them didn't get any protests for some reason. And one was killed by gravity.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    JC29856 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Okay...

    1. Cops stop at an unusual site: a suv is parked directly in the middle of a two way, single lane highway.

    2. A man approaches the officers, but when they (she) issues commands... he ignores them and walks to his suv.

    3. He continues to ignore them and reaches into his suv for something.

    4. Cops shoot.

    Does this sum it up about right?

    Except his windows were up.
    "He is a bad dude" from 75 feet in the air.
    I asked you yesterday to link the piece that revealed his windows were up. Is there a piece that does this? That fact would change my perspective on this scenario significantly.

    Or are you just spouting stuff? Like the off hand comment (that you actually misquoted) made by the helicopter pilot which had no bearing on the situation on the ground?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Jason P said:

    JC29856 said:

    Killedbypolice.net adds 6 to the list Sept 20, 2016

    All six were armed robbers. Five of them didn't get any protests for some reason. And one was killed by gravity.
    I just wanna cook the one that was killed by gravity a rib eye.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,588
    hsohi said:

    All this happening under the leadership of a black president. Of course Clinton has all the answers and will bring unity to all something that Obama couldn't. What a joke.
    From the outside looking in Trump is looking more and more better.

    The president doesn't run the police departments. But how is Trump's plan 'more better'?
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    edited September 2016
    http://useofforceproject.org
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,846
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    mace1229 said:

    Go Beavers said:

    mace1229 said:

    Cliffy6745 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    unsung said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    So....apprently you can be executed if you don't follow orders from police, even when you are a threat to no one.

    People should be allowed to tell cops to go stuff it up their hairy as**s. Why should we have to listen to them?
    Are you serious?
    No.

    I find the idea that cops should just let people go on whatever terms they dictate... when they don't feel like being detained... is completely absurd.

    It's not that gawddamn hard to comply. You're tempting fate when you don't.
    Do you know what probable cause is?
    Question time. Great!

    Answer: yes

    Question: do you understand the threat officers face in the line of duty?
    What is considered enough of a threat to kill someone? Honest question. I would argue until someone walking away from you with their hands up towards a car does something sudden or reaches, that is not enough to kill someone. The officers sign up for that threat the first day they show up at the academy and you can't kill someone the second you get scared.
    Most definitions would be fear of death or great injury to you or someone else. Most cases walking away would not count as a great threat, but if you had reason to believe there was a weapon in the car he was walking toward, that could easily be argued (not saying there just, just answering the question).

    It is very difficult to prove what a person was feeling. In many cases, officer or civilian, it is the first few sentences in the statement given that determines the level of threat. Two exact same scenarios may have 2 different outcomes based on the person's statement. One person breaks into a house, the owner says "I was so scared, even though he turned around I just had this feeling he was coming back and all I could think about were my kids upstairs so I just I shot." He may get away with it. The next person may say "My house was broken in last week and I know it was him, he wasn't going to break into my house ever again!" probably would be charged with murder. I've seen cases where someone shot in the back and no charges were filed, and some where they were shot in the front and he was charged with murder.

    I had a friend who thought some local kids were breaking into his house. He used some racial slurs describing how he would protect himself and I told him if it comes to that, don't use any of those words. It could even be language like that that would sway a prosecutor that you weren't really in fear but acted out of anger, even though they were breaking into your house.
    I imagine the cop who shot the guy walking to his car felt threatened, the problem is, due to prejudice blacks are perceived as a greater threat. If he was white, more likely other reasons go through their brain: he's on drugs, he's psychotic, he is deaf etc.
    I've thought the same thing before.
    There are far more great people of all races than bad. But also, per capita there are more violent crimes committed by blacks and attacks on cops than whites. So regardless of training, it is only natural to be more cautious when approaching someone of color when you are a police officer. Not saying its right, its just reality.
    And here is where I'd like to say what I've said before: we are all complicit in this event.

    The routine encounters between cops and black men are only the point if a much bigger problem: the oppression of black people.

    It irritates me to read comments from (presumably) white people that prosper in a white serving society, while afforded hindsight as well as the comfort of their sofa, point fingers at cops for doing a poor job at these encounters.

    Your comment is fair and accurate, but I'd add that the blacks you speak of develop criminal tendencies and hostile attitudes given the alternative is a career at Carl's Jr. Until legitimate opportunity and hope is realistic, nothing will change. For this to happen, meaningful social programs would need to be implemented and that would mean sacrifice on the part of those that wag their fingers at cops (or sit down during national anthems).
    I probably would have disagreed with that last thought 10 years ago. I still wouldn't agree 100%.-meaning that is a factor but not the only, and maybe not even the biggest factor.
    I can't help but feel the lack of 2-parent households and father figures plays a major impact. People in the media get labeled racist for bringing it up, but how does that not contribute? Kids are coming home to an empty house because mom works extra hours and don't have a father figure. That is not a lack of legitimate opportunity, that is a cultural phenomenon and a decision those fathers made that does impact their children and make it harder for them to break the cycle. And it repeats. But it is not PC to talk about it, so no one does.

    The stats for fatherless children are staggering, which a much higher likelihood for suicide, criminal activity, etc.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    mace1229 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    mace1229 said:

    Go Beavers said:

    mace1229 said:

    Cliffy6745 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    unsung said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Go Beavers said:

    So....apprently you can be executed if you don't follow orders from police, even when you are a threat to no one.

    People should be allowed to tell cops to go stuff it up their hairy as**s. Why should we have to listen to them?
    Are you serious?
    No.

    I find the idea that cops should just let people go on whatever terms they dictate... when they don't feel like being detained... is completely absurd.

    It's not that gawddamn hard to comply. You're tempting fate when you don't.
    Do you know what probable cause is?
    Question time. Great!

    Answer: yes

    Question: do you understand the threat officers face in the line of duty?
    What is considered enough of a threat to kill someone? Honest question. I would argue until someone walking away from you with their hands up towards a car does something sudden or reaches, that is not enough to kill someone. The officers sign up for that threat the first day they show up at the academy and you can't kill someone the second you get scared.
    Most definitions would be fear of death or great injury to you or someone else. Most cases walking away would not count as a great threat, but if you had reason to believe there was a weapon in the car he was walking toward, that could easily be argued (not saying there just, just answering the question).

    It is very difficult to prove what a person was feeling. In many cases, officer or civilian, it is the first few sentences in the statement given that determines the level of threat. Two exact same scenarios may have 2 different outcomes based on the person's statement. One person breaks into a house, the owner says "I was so scared, even though he turned around I just had this feeling he was coming back and all I could think about were my kids upstairs so I just I shot." He may get away with it. The next person may say "My house was broken in last week and I know it was him, he wasn't going to break into my house ever again!" probably would be charged with murder. I've seen cases where someone shot in the back and no charges were filed, and some where they were shot in the front and he was charged with murder.

    I had a friend who thought some local kids were breaking into his house. He used some racial slurs describing how he would protect himself and I told him if it comes to that, don't use any of those words. It could even be language like that that would sway a prosecutor that you weren't really in fear but acted out of anger, even though they were breaking into your house.
    I imagine the cop who shot the guy walking to his car felt threatened, the problem is, due to prejudice blacks are perceived as a greater threat. If he was white, more likely other reasons go through their brain: he's on drugs, he's psychotic, he is deaf etc.
    I've thought the same thing before.
    There are far more great people of all races than bad. But also, per capita there are more violent crimes committed by blacks and attacks on cops than whites. So regardless of training, it is only natural to be more cautious when approaching someone of color when you are a police officer. Not saying its right, its just reality.
    And here is where I'd like to say what I've said before: we are all complicit in this event.

    The routine encounters between cops and black men are only the point if a much bigger problem: the oppression of black people.

    It irritates me to read comments from (presumably) white people that prosper in a white serving society, while afforded hindsight as well as the comfort of their sofa, point fingers at cops for doing a poor job at these encounters.

    Your comment is fair and accurate, but I'd add that the blacks you speak of develop criminal tendencies and hostile attitudes given the alternative is a career at Carl's Jr. Until legitimate opportunity and hope is realistic, nothing will change. For this to happen, meaningful social programs would need to be implemented and that would mean sacrifice on the part of those that wag their fingers at cops (or sit down during national anthems).
    I probably would have disagreed with that last thought 10 years ago. I still wouldn't agree 100%.-meaning that is a factor but not the only, and maybe not even the biggest factor.
    I can't help but feel the lack of 2-parent households and father figures plays a major impact. People in the media get labeled racist for bringing it up, but how does that not contribute? Kids are coming home to an empty house because mom works extra hours and don't have a father figure. That is not a lack of legitimate opportunity, that is a cultural phenomenon and a decision those fathers made that does impact their children and make it harder for them to break the cycle. And it repeats. But it is not PC to talk about it, so no one does.

    The stats for fatherless children are staggering, which a much higher likelihood for suicide, criminal activity, etc.
    I'd be curious to know the ages of parents (mean average).

    I could be way off base, but I would speculate that many inner city youth are having kids in their mid to late teens and simply unprepared or ready to provide responsible parenting- and this becomes somewhat cyclical.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
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