Research On Alcoholism Refutes The Success of the 12 Step Program (AA)

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  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    Awesome.
    It worked for you and I am sure it will work for many others.
    It most certainly will. For those I personally come into contact with , I will tell them what I did and how I did it, and they are then free to choose for themselves. Whatever they choose for themselves will get my support and encouragement. If they drank and/or used like I did , I dont care what method they choose, I only want for them to know a freedom such as I have now.
    And success stories like this are exactly why programs like AA exist.
    Good on you.
  • Wma31394
    Wma31394 Posts: 3,045
    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    Congrats!!
    "Going where the water tastes like wine!"
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    I've read some of your journey, mickey. Cheers to you.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    I've know a few people who had serious problems with dependencies and got themselves together through 12 step groups but I've also known people who found other ways that worked. What ever works, go with that. I've been to a few 12 step meeting, a couple times to fulfill a college course requirement in a counseling training program and a few times to support a friend (that friend, sorry to say was more focused on another goal for which she was successful: to drink herself to death). There was nothing in those meetings that worked from my own perspective. Others there were really in to it. (Oddly, most were heavy smokers.)

    So having been to the meetings, if I had a dependency problem I wanted to kick, 12 step would definitely not be the way to go for me. But that doesn't mean I'm against it anymore than I'm against people going to a church or synagogue or mosque or run bare naked in the forest.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    mickeyrat said:

    Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?

    I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.

    I have never been addicted. But my grandfather was a raging alcoholic for 40 years and he kicked it by going to a Betty Ford Centre, which uses holistic and very individualized healing methods, apparently.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    edited March 2016
    My own arm's length experience with 12 steps....it resulted in a coke addicted family member finding two different boyfriends....one was a junky who set her up to put a needle in her arm for the first time....the next ended up robbing her.
    I'm sure there is a lot of good that comes from it...but the higher power stuff would keep me away...and the social circle aspect - relying on people who could be much worse off than I am for support, makes it a bit of a daunting proposition.
    Post edited by Drowned Out on
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,433
    PJ_Soul said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?

    I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.

    I have never been addicted. But my grandfather was a raging alcoholic for 40 years and he kicked it by going to a Betty Ford Centre, which uses holistic and very individualized healing methods, apparently.
    Good for him. Did he choose to stay sober?

    Looked briefly online at BFC trying see what they describe as holistic. Just curious.
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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,433
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.

    I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.

    the other issue, as pointed out in the article, is that no one affiliated with AA has any formal training in counselling. it is entirely based on experience. can you imagine going to a psychologist whose plaque on the wall said "crazy for 15 years, but now I'm good" instead of a diploma? that wouldn't fly in any other medium.

    support groups are great. they are invaluable. but when you are, as the article said, dealing with the law as well and people's livelihoods, these people need to be represented by those who have knowledge on the subject, not just personal experience. that's tantamount to hearsay.
    True, few do have counseling degrees. But then we dont claim to do or be counselers.Some though do go back to school after getting sober and go into the field. Or social work.

    But that isnt what really happens at meetings, which are varied in format or type of meeting. Could be a topic discussion, literature reading, speaker meeting. But its not like what you may have seen in movies.

    In many ways we are being shown how to live. With ourselves and others. We find acceptance of emotions( which many drank or used to numb because we didnt like how it felt), a place to freely express that with less fear of judgement and more often the support of folks who "get it".
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ldent42
    ldent42 NYC Posts: 7,859
    What are the science based alternatives to AA?
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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,433
    ldent42 said:

    What are the science based alternatives to AA?

    The meds now available and the clinical psychology is far better than when AA was first developed.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    mickeyrat said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?

    I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.

    I have never been addicted. But my grandfather was a raging alcoholic for 40 years and he kicked it by going to a Betty Ford Centre, which uses holistic and very individualized healing methods, apparently.
    Good for him. Did he choose to stay sober?

    Looked briefly online at BFC trying see what they describe as holistic. Just curious.
    He did indeed stay sober (he's dead now (that's okay - he died sober, but that never made him a good grandpa or father TBH)). He became addicted to caffeine-free Coca-Cola, lol, and also smoked like 3 packs of Camels a day, but he never drank again.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • ldent42
    ldent42 NYC Posts: 7,859
    mickeyrat said:

    ldent42 said:

    What are the science based alternatives to AA?

    The meds now available and the clinical psychology is far better than when AA was first developed.
    Oh I had no idea there was medication available! So is that something where you'd have to see your regular doctor or you'd have to see a shrink and do therapy to get it?
    NYC 06/24/08-Auckland 11/27/09-Chch 11/29/09-Newark 05/18/10-Atlanta 09/22/12-Chicago 07/19/13-Brooklyn 10/18/13 & 10/19/13-Hartford 10/25/13-Baltimore 10/27/13-Auckland 1/17/14-GC 1/19/14-Melbourne 1/24/14-Sydney 1/26/14-Amsterdam 6/16/14 & 6/17/14-Milan 6/20/14-Berlin 6/26/14-Leeds 7/8/14-Milton Keynes 7/11/14-St. Louis 10/3/14-NYC 9/26/15
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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,433
    ldent42 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    ldent42 said:

    What are the science based alternatives to AA?

    The meds now available and the clinical psychology is far better than when AA was first developed.
    Oh I had no idea there was medication available! So is that something where you'd have to see your regular doctor or you'd have to see a shrink and do therapy to get it?
    That I dont know. But there are meds to block certain effects.

    I'm doing what I found that works for me.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ldent42
    ldent42 NYC Posts: 7,859
    Ok sorry I just thought it was interesting
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  • Amongst the Ani
    Amongst the Ani @Wobbie Posts: 7,790
    I will have 1 year sobriety in 10 days. While I did not chose a 12 step program I chose some parts of it in doing things my own way. The biggest was to understand that I can't control myself in some regards and thus to understand never again really means never again. Any while the people are not trained therapists it was people like Mickey that used their experiences to help me in the beginning as I figured things out. So while I do not go to meetings I would give them major kudos in helping me. That is what the program is really about. People who have been there and done that who understand what you are going through. Not everyone needs to go through the steps to get help from the program. Sometimes you just need to see people who are winning this war inside them to let you know you can as well. AA gives you a place to just understand you can do this.
    Tom Brady & Donald Trump, BFF's
    Fuckus rules all
    Rob
    Seattle
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Ani, your whole post but especially the last two sentences got me a bit teary. Thank you for your eloquent candor.
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    12-step troublemaker: One nurse's fight for choice in addiction treatment

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/12-step-nurse-addictions-1.4805538?cmp=rss

    My brother had addiction issues, died way to young...multiple times in rehab/AA ... they all use this complete bullshit program, that was created by some holy roller in the 20's.  I've read enough articles on the 12 program to know it should be illegal and secular based treatments that are proven effective should be sanctioned by the health care system.  
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    There is a reason so many alcoholics fail in AA ... 
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • lastexitlondon
    lastexitlondon Posts: 14,898
    Nothing is for everyone. But there is something for everyone.. .I'm proud of this sentence


    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    lastexitlondon said:
    Nothing is for everyone. But there is something for everyone.. .I'm proud of this sentence
    The thing is ... people who seek treatment should have reasonable assurance of a successful outcome.  People die because this program does not work and most clinics do not offer alternatives...
    Give Peas A Chance…

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