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Research On Alcoholism Refutes The Success of the 12 Step Program (AA)

HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,350
in A Moving Train
very long read, but very interesting.....

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/?utm_source=rstw
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
-EV  8/14/93




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Comments

  • Who PrincessWho Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    A friend who had been a chemical dependency counselor told me many years ago that 12 step groups weren't for everyone. I respect that and hope that alternative treatment methods are developed and gain acceptance. But I'm not going to knock AA, which has kept my sister-in-law sober for 15 years. The person she is now is light years from who she was when she drank. My impression is that people who don't favor 12 step groups seem to think such groups are completely ineffective. I don't think it's such an either/or situation.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    Will check back.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,988
    I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.

    I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,350
    Who Princess said:

    A friend who had been a chemical dependency counselor told me many years ago that 12 step groups weren't for everyone. I respect that and hope that alternative treatment methods are developed and gain acceptance. But I'm not going to knock AA, which has kept my sister-in-law sober for 15 years. The person she is now is light years from who she was when she drank. My impression is that people who don't favor 12 step groups seem to think such groups are completely ineffective. I don't think it's such an either/or situation.

    the point of the article, from what I got from it, was not knocking AA per say, except maybe on the point that they claim to have a 75% success rate, which is apparently a massive overstatement. as it does seem to work for some. but it fails many, many more. mainly because it was developed before we knew what we know now about addiction and how to handle it. if it works for someone, I say hey, more power to them. but people have to know there are alternatives out there, alternatives that are science-, not faith-, based.
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,350
    PJ_Soul said:

    I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.

    I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.

    the other issue, as pointed out in the article, is that no one affiliated with AA has any formal training in counselling. it is entirely based on experience. can you imagine going to a psychologist whose plaque on the wall said "crazy for 15 years, but now I'm good" instead of a diploma? that wouldn't fly in any other medium.

    support groups are great. they are invaluable. but when you are, as the article said, dealing with the law as well and people's livelihoods, these people need to be represented by those who have knowledge on the subject, not just personal experience. that's tantamount to hearsay.
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,988
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    can you imagine going to a psychologist whose plaque on the wall said "crazy for 15 years, but now I'm good" instead of a diploma?

    :rofl:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited March 2016
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Who Princess said:

    A friend who had been a chemical dependency counselor told me many years ago that 12 step groups weren't for everyone. I respect that and hope that alternative treatment methods are developed and gain acceptance. But I'm not going to knock AA, which has kept my sister-in-law sober for 15 years. The person she is now is light years from who she was when she drank. My impression is that people who don't favor 12 step groups seem to think such groups are completely ineffective. I don't think it's such an either/or situation.

    the point of the article, from what I got from it, was not knocking AA per say, except maybe on the point that they claim to have a 75% success rate, which is apparently a massive overstatement. as it does seem to work for some. but it fails many, many more. mainly because it was developed before we knew what we know now about addiction and how to handle it. if it works for someone, I say hey, more power to them. but people have to know there are alternatives out there, alternatives that are science-, not faith-, based.
    I agree but people who have faith-based beliefs will always start with the option of faith and will continue on that route guided by faith.
    If the program helps in someway for them to give up their ghost fine. But I don't remember what step it is that you have to apologize to people you have wronged. If you apologize for being a bully to someone in school way back when you are looking for a punch to the face as an adult.

    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?

    I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited March 2016
    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    Think they have their history a little wrong here, At one time there was a push with Bill W to open and run a string of treatment centers. That was shut down by the membership at the time. This Mann person ended up being a chief driver through his actions of what became the 12 traditions(which are guiding principles for AA furnctionality)

    Given the anonymous nature of the program i.e. No membership lists official or otherwise , its all speculation as to how many members there are or even the number of groups who call themselves an AA meeting. Unless they choose to register the meeting with the new york main office it would stay a locally known group.

    AA has no opinion on what it considers "outside" issues , as it became clear with Mann that it put what did work for some in jeopardy but in the text it does encourgae going to those professionals trained in xy or z. Neither does it claim to be the only thing out there. It was however the only known thing that seemed to work for the hopelessly alcoholic for an awful long time. In fact it makes clear that what was found to work in AA was only a beginning and a very small drop in a vast sea.

    Now something that bugs me personally in the rooms is folks who state without question as AA is the only way. Its just not true and the text doesnt make that claim. It may be that AA is the only way for them ( I hold this position), but often that clarifier is left off. Knowing what alcoholism and drug addiction did to stunt my "growth" as a human being and the hell of active addiction, my fervent wish is for the addict to find what works for them. But that help , whatever it may be , requires a measure of discipline regardless of method.

    So AA claims to only be able to help those who deem themselves hopeless in the face of alcohol. I have so much more to say but think I should see if you guys have questions that I can answer.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    edited March 2016
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    So what exactly is your point? That doesnt proscribe a particular religious faith tradition.

    The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.

    I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.

    Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.

    As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited March 2016
    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    So what exactly is your point?

    The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.

    I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.

    Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.

    As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.
    That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    So what exactly is your point?

    The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.

    I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.

    Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.

    As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.
    That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.
    Go read chapter 4.

    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    So what exactly is your point?

    The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.

    I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.

    Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.

    As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.
    That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.
    Go read chapter 4.

    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
    On pg 47 of that pdf it says
    "When, therefore, we speak to you of god, we mean your own conception of god"



    AA is faith based.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    So what exactly is your point?

    The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.

    I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.

    Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.

    As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.
    That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.
    Go read chapter 4.

    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
    On pg 47 of that pdf it says
    "When, therefore, we speak to you of god, we mean your own conception of god"



    AA is faith based.
    How then are you defining that faith? what does that statement mean to you? That its religious in nature? Because thats the usual definition.

    I walked into a room of people, listen to thwem tell their story and that they found a way to stay sober, when I could not. I took it on faith that what would work for them could work for me.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.

    For starters.
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf
    So what exactly is your point?

    The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.

    I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.

    Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.

    As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.
    That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.
    Go read chapter 4.

    http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
    On pg 47 of that pdf it says
    "When, therefore, we speak to you of god, we mean your own conception of god"



    AA is faith based.
    How then are you defining that faith? what does that statement mean to you? That its religious in nature? Because thats the usual definition.

    I walked into a room of people, listen to thwem tell their story and that they found a way to stay sober, when I could not. I took it on faith that what would work for them could work for me.
    It's great that this program worked for you.
    And I encourage all programs that seek to help others.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    Awesome.
    It worked for you and I am sure it will work for many others.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    Awesome.
    It worked for you and I am sure it will work for many others.
    It most certainly will. For those I personally come into contact with , I will tell them what I did and how I did it, and they are then free to choose for themselves. Whatever they choose for themselves will get my support and encouragement. If they drank and/or used like I did , I dont care what method they choose, I only want for them to know a freedom such as I have now.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    mickeyrat said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    Awesome.
    It worked for you and I am sure it will work for many others.
    It most certainly will. For those I personally come into contact with , I will tell them what I did and how I did it, and they are then free to choose for themselves. Whatever they choose for themselves will get my support and encouragement. If they drank and/or used like I did , I dont care what method they choose, I only want for them to know a freedom such as I have now.
    And success stories like this are exactly why programs like AA exist.
    Good on you.
  • Wma31394Wma31394 Posts: 3,045
    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    Congrats!!
    "Going where the water tastes like wine!"
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    mickeyrat said:

    I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.

    You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.

    I've read some of your journey, mickey. Cheers to you.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,304
    I've know a few people who had serious problems with dependencies and got themselves together through 12 step groups but I've also known people who found other ways that worked. What ever works, go with that. I've been to a few 12 step meeting, a couple times to fulfill a college course requirement in a counseling training program and a few times to support a friend (that friend, sorry to say was more focused on another goal for which she was successful: to drink herself to death). There was nothing in those meetings that worked from my own perspective. Others there were really in to it. (Oddly, most were heavy smokers.)

    So having been to the meetings, if I had a dependency problem I wanted to kick, 12 step would definitely not be the way to go for me. But that doesn't mean I'm against it anymore than I'm against people going to a church or synagogue or mosque or run bare naked in the forest.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,988
    mickeyrat said:

    Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?

    I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.

    I have never been addicted. But my grandfather was a raging alcoholic for 40 years and he kicked it by going to a Betty Ford Centre, which uses holistic and very individualized healing methods, apparently.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    edited March 2016
    My own arm's length experience with 12 steps....it resulted in a coke addicted family member finding two different boyfriends....one was a junky who set her up to put a needle in her arm for the first time....the next ended up robbing her.
    I'm sure there is a lot of good that comes from it...but the higher power stuff would keep me away...and the social circle aspect - relying on people who could be much worse off than I am for support, makes it a bit of a daunting proposition.
    Post edited by Drowned Out on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    PJ_Soul said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?

    I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article.

    I have never been addicted. But my grandfather was a raging alcoholic for 40 years and he kicked it by going to a Betty Ford Centre, which uses holistic and very individualized healing methods, apparently.
    Good for him. Did he choose to stay sober?

    Looked briefly online at BFC trying see what they describe as holistic. Just curious.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.

    I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.

    the other issue, as pointed out in the article, is that no one affiliated with AA has any formal training in counselling. it is entirely based on experience. can you imagine going to a psychologist whose plaque on the wall said "crazy for 15 years, but now I'm good" instead of a diploma? that wouldn't fly in any other medium.

    support groups are great. they are invaluable. but when you are, as the article said, dealing with the law as well and people's livelihoods, these people need to be represented by those who have knowledge on the subject, not just personal experience. that's tantamount to hearsay.
    True, few do have counseling degrees. But then we dont claim to do or be counselers.Some though do go back to school after getting sober and go into the field. Or social work.

    But that isnt what really happens at meetings, which are varied in format or type of meeting. Could be a topic discussion, literature reading, speaker meeting. But its not like what you may have seen in movies.

    In many ways we are being shown how to live. With ourselves and others. We find acceptance of emotions( which many drank or used to numb because we didnt like how it felt), a place to freely express that with less fear of judgement and more often the support of folks who "get it".
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ldent42ldent42 NYC Posts: 7,859
    What are the science based alternatives to AA?
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,305
    ldent42 said:

    What are the science based alternatives to AA?

    The meds now available and the clinical psychology is far better than when AA was first developed.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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