Anxiety

iluvcats · November 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

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iluvcats said:

HughFreakingDillon said:
anxiety has crippled me. it was the main reason I wasn't around here for a few months. I couldn't function. at first it manifested itself physically and emotionally....i was constantly shaking, my digestive system was not working properly, which caused me to basically stop eating and I lost 40 pounds in 2 months. I needed to anyway, but that wasn't the way I wanted to lose it. then I had the stress of people telling me I was "wasting away".

I was sleeping about 3 hours a night. Working full time. 2 kids under 10 years old. shit was exhausting. it didn't seem like life was ever going to be normal again.

I was very near suicide, to be honest. if I didn't have kids, I very well might not have chosen to keep on.

I finally went to my doc, got checked out physically, and when all of that was ruled out, he put me on meds (which I was on months ago, but went off). I can't believe I've still been able to work most days. Often I'd have to call in sick, but then I found I functioned even more poorly at home with nothing to do; I would sit literally in one spot for hours, thinking about death.

the dread: I was obsessing with the purpose of life. I couldn't figure out what the fuck we are doing here, what our purpose is, and why the hell I brought kids into such a horrible existence.

now the anxiety is pretty much gone, but now I have stabbing pains in my abdomen, sometimes lasting all day. it literally feels like someone is twisting a pair of scissors in my gut. it's awful. and no amount of pain relievers, legal and otherwise, do anything for it. got a CT scan, it came back 100% clear. my doc thinks it's muscle tension built up over time from all the anxiety.

My stomach gets all tied up knots when I have plans to go out or do something that is not at "home base" (close to a bathroom). it's been very limiting. I couldn't even go to a movie this past weekend.

we have a trip to Vegas booked in December. it was booked before all this went down. I'm terrified of going. My wife has been amazing through all of this. I don't want to let her down. the trip is for her 40th birthday, and another couple are meeting us there.

and anxiety is not actually a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured. anxiety, or at least overactive anxiety, can be. it's a cognitive disorder. it's not a chemical imbalance.
I hope your stomach feels better! When I was 13 and my mom was going through another divorce, I would wake up so nauseated (probably dreading another day of stress at home), it was hard for me to eat my cereal. In bed, I would worry over the stupidest things now that I look back....but it was severe anxiety. It was great that my mom left my abusive step father, but then her next relationship involved alot of fighting :( My step father did not abuse me or my sister, his anger was directed at his son.

It's 3:30 a.m. and I don't know how I'll go back to sleep, this ringing in my ears is driving me crazy, it is so high pitched. At least I don't have to go to work but am meeting friends for lunch.

I have had knots in my stomach too when I was around people I didn't like and I was trying to still tolerate them.

Hugh, is the other couple your wife's friends?
Yes, her best friend and her husband.

I hope you have good weather to fly in and that you guys have fun

brianlux · November 2015

2-feign-reluctance said:

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brianlux said:

hedonist said:
Been there many a time, B.

To say it's difficult is an understatement.

What do you do when it hits? Know the cause, if any?

Sometimes I try to breathe, at least focus on the process of my body doing so, and other times just go with it and ride that wave best I can.

Hope it passes soon.
Thank Hedo. For me, some times it just comes out of the blue like some vague non-specific dread. Other times its caused more directly by things I can't identify like unusual sounds which is what got to me tonight. There was this weird metallic grinding going on in the dark just down from us- not that it was spooky, just that it was unrecognizable. Instead of just being irritating, for some reason it ignited some pretty intense anxiety.

Breathing is what I've heard most often is good to do. I'll have to try to remember to do that more. Usually I just try to engage my brain with something like computer card games or computer chess and wait for it to pass. I like the way you put it- "ride the wave best I can."

Thanks for the empathy- that helps!
Therapy and medication are the most effective. I put mine in remission about 6 years ago now, but had to do the hard work.

Yes, it is hard work! I finally got help with a med called Serzone but then they took it off the market. The only thing I take now is an herbal tincture. It's made by a local woman who is renowned for her knowledge of herbal medicine and it seems to help.

oftenreading · November 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:
anxiety has crippled me. it was the main reason I wasn't around here for a few months. I couldn't function. at first it manifested itself physically and emotionally....i was constantly shaking, my digestive system was not working properly, which caused me to basically stop eating and I lost 40 pounds in 2 months. I needed to anyway, but that wasn't the way I wanted to lose it. then I had the stress of people telling me I was "wasting away".

I was sleeping about 3 hours a night. Working full time. 2 kids under 10 years old. shit was exhausting. it didn't seem like life was ever going to be normal again.

I was very near suicide, to be honest. if I didn't have kids, I very well might not have chosen to keep on.

I finally went to my doc, got checked out physically, and when all of that was ruled out, he put me on meds (which I was on months ago, but went off). I can't believe I've still been able to work most days. Often I'd have to call in sick, but then I found I functioned even more poorly at home with nothing to do; I would sit literally in one spot for hours, thinking about death.

the dread: I was obsessing with the purpose of life. I couldn't figure out what the fuck we are doing here, what our purpose is, and why the hell I brought kids into such a horrible existence.

now the anxiety is pretty much gone, but now I have stabbing pains in my abdomen, sometimes lasting all day. it literally feels like someone is twisting a pair of scissors in my gut. it's awful. and no amount of pain relievers, legal and otherwise, do anything for it. got a CT scan, it came back 100% clear. my doc thinks it's muscle tension built up over time from all the anxiety.

My stomach gets all tied up knots when I have plans to go out or do something that is not at "home base" (close to a bathroom). it's been very limiting. I couldn't even go to a movie this past weekend.

we have a trip to Vegas booked in December. it was booked before all this went down. I'm terrified of going. My wife has been amazing through all of this. I don't want to let her down. the trip is for her 40th birthday, and another couple are meeting us there.

and anxiety is not actually a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured. anxiety, or at least overactive anxiety, can be. it's a cognitive disorder. it's not a chemical imbalance.

Paul, what you're going through totally sucks and I'm sorry to hear it's happening to you. I know you have family issues that you deal with, too; it sounds overwhelming. I'm glad you're still here - not just here on the site, but here in general.

What I know about anxiety is that avoidance of things that make you anxious just reinforces the anxiety. It feels better in the short term but hurts in the long term. This gets to the "cognitive disorder" aspect; the reduction of anxiety with avoidance is strongly positively reinforcing to your brain that there really is something to be afraid of and that avoidance is the safest choice. The crucial thing for treatment is to not avoid, which you can do in tiny steps (graded exposure) or huge steps (flooding), but for it to work you need to stay in the situation long enough for the anxiety to diminish on its own so that you brain can start to re-learn that nothing bad actually happens. Obviously, this is tough. I really hope you decide to go ahead with the trip, both because I think it would be good not to avoid it, but also because it sounds like you deserve a good break.

(and I would quibble with your statement that "anxiety is not a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured". I don't believe either clause is true; however, this isn't the time or place to argue

)

RKCNDY · November 2015

^^^I don't know often...there are things that can trigger my anxiety, I've tried to deal with it in this way, but it never turns out well, I just shut down and can't function. It's a bit easier to handle now than it has been in the past, but still not easy.

2-feign-reluctance · November 2015

Ok, therapist coming out here. Anxiety is a mental health disorder. It also doesn't tend to "go away". It has periods of remission though and can last a long time.

oftenreading · November 2015

RKCNDY said:
^^^I don't know often...there are things that can trigger my anxiety, I've tried to deal with it in this way, but it never turns out well, I just shut down and can't function. It's a bit easier to handle now than it has been in the past, but still not easy.

Sure. That was the (very) short version; the actual version is longer and more complicated. Sorry if I made it sound straightforward here.

brianlux · November 2015

oftenreading said:

show previous quotes
RKCNDY said:
^^^I don't know often...there are things that can trigger my anxiety, I've tried to deal with it in this way, but it never turns out well, I just shut down and can't function. It's a bit easier to handle now than it has been in the past, but still not easy.
Sure. That was the (very) short version; the actual version is longer and more complicated. Sorry if I made it sound straightforward here.

The "graded exposure" and "flooding" part is interesting to me. I tend to go with avoidance a lot of the time with little reluctant periods of exposure. But it gets about complicated because some of my anxiety is phonophobic related and because I have nerve damage in my ears so some sounds really are painful and increase my tinnitus. Guns shots, loud dogs barking, cars backfiring, sudden loud metallic sounds all send me diving under the bed so-to-speak. And since it was an explosion that caused the damage,I have a bit of a PTSD issue. Thankfully, music is my ally. I "medicate with music" to keep my spirits up (as Henry Rollins once put it) but also use music to keep my ability to attenuate sound from collapsing totally as it once did.

HughFreakingDillon · November 2015

2-feign-reluctance said:
Ok, therapist coming out here. Anxiety is a mental health disorder. It also doesn't tend to "go away". It has periods of remission though and can last a long time.

I think the jury is out on this one, even amongst your peers.

HughFreakingDillon · November 2015

oftenreading said:

show previous quotes
HughFreakingDillon said:
anxiety has crippled me. it was the main reason I wasn't around here for a few months. I couldn't function. at first it manifested itself physically and emotionally....i was constantly shaking, my digestive system was not working properly, which caused me to basically stop eating and I lost 40 pounds in 2 months. I needed to anyway, but that wasn't the way I wanted to lose it. then I had the stress of people telling me I was "wasting away".

I was sleeping about 3 hours a night. Working full time. 2 kids under 10 years old. shit was exhausting. it didn't seem like life was ever going to be normal again.

I was very near suicide, to be honest. if I didn't have kids, I very well might not have chosen to keep on.

I finally went to my doc, got checked out physically, and when all of that was ruled out, he put me on meds (which I was on months ago, but went off). I can't believe I've still been able to work most days. Often I'd have to call in sick, but then I found I functioned even more poorly at home with nothing to do; I would sit literally in one spot for hours, thinking about death.

the dread: I was obsessing with the purpose of life. I couldn't figure out what the fuck we are doing here, what our purpose is, and why the hell I brought kids into such a horrible existence.

now the anxiety is pretty much gone, but now I have stabbing pains in my abdomen, sometimes lasting all day. it literally feels like someone is twisting a pair of scissors in my gut. it's awful. and no amount of pain relievers, legal and otherwise, do anything for it. got a CT scan, it came back 100% clear. my doc thinks it's muscle tension built up over time from all the anxiety.

My stomach gets all tied up knots when I have plans to go out or do something that is not at "home base" (close to a bathroom). it's been very limiting. I couldn't even go to a movie this past weekend.

we have a trip to Vegas booked in December. it was booked before all this went down. I'm terrified of going. My wife has been amazing through all of this. I don't want to let her down. the trip is for her 40th birthday, and another couple are meeting us there.

and anxiety is not actually a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured. anxiety, or at least overactive anxiety, can be. it's a cognitive disorder. it's not a chemical imbalance.
Paul, what you're going through totally sucks and I'm sorry to hear it's happening to you. I know you have family issues that you deal with, too; it sounds overwhelming. I'm glad you're still here - not just here on the site, but here in general.

What I know about anxiety is that avoidance of things that make you anxious just reinforces the anxiety. It feels better in the short term but hurts in the long term. This gets to the "cognitive disorder" aspect; the reduction of anxiety with avoidance is strongly positively reinforcing to your brain that there really is something to be afraid of and that avoidance is the safest choice. The crucial thing for treatment is to not avoid, which you can do in tiny steps (graded exposure) or huge steps (flooding), but for it to work you need to stay in the situation long enough for the anxiety to diminish on its own so that you brain can start to re-learn that nothing bad actually happens. Obviously, this is tough. I really hope you decide to go ahead with the trip, both because I think it would be good not to avoid it, but also because it sounds like you deserve a good break.

(and I would quibble with your statement that "anxiety is not a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured". I don't believe either clause is true; however, this isn't the time or place to argue )

yes, I have done a lot of reading on the subject, and know all too well that avoidance helps in the short term, but not in the long term. I will be going to vegas, that is 100%. just how I deal with it is the question.

unfortunately, in my experience of being both introverted and anxious, is that vacations like these don't turn out to be a break at all. I need a vacation after the vacation. A break for me is relaxing on a beach (my anxiety, I noticed over the summer, is at its lowest when out at my wife's family cottage). not the hustle of a busy city with bright lights and constant stimulation. so we'll see.

although, exhaustion COULD turn out to be a benefit for me, in that it will release a whole whack of nervous tension.

Sprunkn7 · November 2015

brianlux said:

show previous quotes
oftenreading said:

RKCNDY said:
^^^I don't know often...there are things that can trigger my anxiety, I've tried to deal with it in this way, but it never turns out well, I just shut down and can't function. It's a bit easier to handle now than it has been in the past, but still not easy.
Sure. That was the (very) short version; the actual version is longer and more complicated. Sorry if I made it sound straightforward here.
The "graded exposure" and "flooding" part is interesting to me. I tend to go with avoidance a lot of the time with little reluctant periods of exposure. But it gets about complicated because some of my anxiety is phonophobic related and because I have nerve damage in my ears so some sounds really are painful and increase my tinnitus. Guns shots, loud dogs barking, cars backfiring, sudden loud metallic sounds all send me diving under the bed so-to-speak. And since it was an explosion that caused the damage,I have a bit of a PTSD issue. Thankfully, music is my ally. I "medicate with music" to keep my spirits up (as Henry Rollins once put it) but also use music to keep my ability to attenuate sound from collapsing totally as it once did.

You had me at Henry Rollins

brianlux · November 2015

Sprunkn7 said:

show previous quotes
brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

RKCNDY said:
^^^I don't know often...there are things that can trigger my anxiety, I've tried to deal with it in this way, but it never turns out well, I just shut down and can't function. It's a bit easier to handle now than it has been in the past, but still not easy.
Sure. That was the (very) short version; the actual version is longer and more complicated. Sorry if I made it sound straightforward here.
The "graded exposure" and "flooding" part is interesting to me. I tend to go with avoidance a lot of the time with little reluctant periods of exposure. But it gets about complicated because some of my anxiety is phonophobic related and because I have nerve damage in my ears so some sounds really are painful and increase my tinnitus. Guns shots, loud dogs barking, cars backfiring, sudden loud metallic sounds all send me diving under the bed so-to-speak. And since it was an explosion that caused the damage,I have a bit of a PTSD issue. Thankfully, music is my ally. I "medicate with music" to keep my spirits up (as Henry Rollins once put it) but also use music to keep my ability to attenuate sound from collapsing totally as it once did.
You had me at Henry Rollins

JWPearl · November 2015

no sleep causes anxiety i should have come on here when i couldnt sleep but i didnt
dont change you lovely people

brianlux · November 2015

JWPearl said:
no sleep causes anxiety i should have come on here when i couldnt sleep but i didnt
dont change you lovely people

And for me, visa versa!

Yes, great people, great support!

JWPearl · November 2015

yes sleep has caused me anxiety too if i had nightmares of something happening to my child luckily although their my eye my child shay shes just like her dad which is kinda nice i guess for a change but i on the other hand am nothing like my mother i worry instead, and feel its unfair

oftenreading · November 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

show previous quotes
oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:
anxiety has crippled me. it was the main reason I wasn't around here for a few months. I couldn't function. at first it manifested itself physically and emotionally....i was constantly shaking, my digestive system was not working properly, which caused me to basically stop eating and I lost 40 pounds in 2 months. I needed to anyway, but that wasn't the way I wanted to lose it. then I had the stress of people telling me I was "wasting away".

I was sleeping about 3 hours a night. Working full time. 2 kids under 10 years old. shit was exhausting. it didn't seem like life was ever going to be normal again.

I was very near suicide, to be honest. if I didn't have kids, I very well might not have chosen to keep on.

I finally went to my doc, got checked out physically, and when all of that was ruled out, he put me on meds (which I was on months ago, but went off). I can't believe I've still been able to work most days. Often I'd have to call in sick, but then I found I functioned even more poorly at home with nothing to do; I would sit literally in one spot for hours, thinking about death.

the dread: I was obsessing with the purpose of life. I couldn't figure out what the fuck we are doing here, what our purpose is, and why the hell I brought kids into such a horrible existence.

now the anxiety is pretty much gone, but now I have stabbing pains in my abdomen, sometimes lasting all day. it literally feels like someone is twisting a pair of scissors in my gut. it's awful. and no amount of pain relievers, legal and otherwise, do anything for it. got a CT scan, it came back 100% clear. my doc thinks it's muscle tension built up over time from all the anxiety.

My stomach gets all tied up knots when I have plans to go out or do something that is not at "home base" (close to a bathroom). it's been very limiting. I couldn't even go to a movie this past weekend.

we have a trip to Vegas booked in December. it was booked before all this went down. I'm terrified of going. My wife has been amazing through all of this. I don't want to let her down. the trip is for her 40th birthday, and another couple are meeting us there.

and anxiety is not actually a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured. anxiety, or at least overactive anxiety, can be. it's a cognitive disorder. it's not a chemical imbalance.
Paul, what you're going through totally sucks and I'm sorry to hear it's happening to you. I know you have family issues that you deal with, too; it sounds overwhelming. I'm glad you're still here - not just here on the site, but here in general.

What I know about anxiety is that avoidance of things that make you anxious just reinforces the anxiety. It feels better in the short term but hurts in the long term. This gets to the "cognitive disorder" aspect; the reduction of anxiety with avoidance is strongly positively reinforcing to your brain that there really is something to be afraid of and that avoidance is the safest choice. The crucial thing for treatment is to not avoid, which you can do in tiny steps (graded exposure) or huge steps (flooding), but for it to work you need to stay in the situation long enough for the anxiety to diminish on its own so that you brain can start to re-learn that nothing bad actually happens. Obviously, this is tough. I really hope you decide to go ahead with the trip, both because I think it would be good not to avoid it, but also because it sounds like you deserve a good break.

(and I would quibble with your statement that "anxiety is not a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured". I don't believe either clause is true; however, this isn't the time or place to argue )
yes, I have done a lot of reading on the subject, and know all too well that avoidance helps in the short term, but not in the long term. I will be going to vegas, that is 100%. just how I deal with it is the question.

unfortunately, in my experience of being both introverted and anxious, is that vacations like these don't turn out to be a break at all. I need a vacation after the vacation. A break for me is relaxing on a beach (my anxiety, I noticed over the summer, is at its lowest when out at my wife's family cottage). not the hustle of a busy city with bright lights and constant stimulation. so we'll see.

although, exhaustion COULD turn out to be a benefit for me, in that it will release a whole whack of nervous tension.

Is there anything about the trip that you might possibly like/find tolerable? Maybe take a trip out of the city to the desert, go for a hike or something? I've never been to Vegas but I understand there is beautiful nature around in a very accessible way. I can certainly understand not wanting to deal with the bright lights/big city aspect. It sounds like your wife is really supportive so maybe she'd go for this.

HughFreakingDillon · November 2015

oftenreading said:

show previous quotes
HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:
anxiety has crippled me. it was the main reason I wasn't around here for a few months. I couldn't function. at first it manifested itself physically and emotionally....i was constantly shaking, my digestive system was not working properly, which caused me to basically stop eating and I lost 40 pounds in 2 months. I needed to anyway, but that wasn't the way I wanted to lose it. then I had the stress of people telling me I was "wasting away".

I was sleeping about 3 hours a night. Working full time. 2 kids under 10 years old. shit was exhausting. it didn't seem like life was ever going to be normal again.

I was very near suicide, to be honest. if I didn't have kids, I very well might not have chosen to keep on.

I finally went to my doc, got checked out physically, and when all of that was ruled out, he put me on meds (which I was on months ago, but went off). I can't believe I've still been able to work most days. Often I'd have to call in sick, but then I found I functioned even more poorly at home with nothing to do; I would sit literally in one spot for hours, thinking about death.

the dread: I was obsessing with the purpose of life. I couldn't figure out what the fuck we are doing here, what our purpose is, and why the hell I brought kids into such a horrible existence.

now the anxiety is pretty much gone, but now I have stabbing pains in my abdomen, sometimes lasting all day. it literally feels like someone is twisting a pair of scissors in my gut. it's awful. and no amount of pain relievers, legal and otherwise, do anything for it. got a CT scan, it came back 100% clear. my doc thinks it's muscle tension built up over time from all the anxiety.

My stomach gets all tied up knots when I have plans to go out or do something that is not at "home base" (close to a bathroom). it's been very limiting. I couldn't even go to a movie this past weekend.

we have a trip to Vegas booked in December. it was booked before all this went down. I'm terrified of going. My wife has been amazing through all of this. I don't want to let her down. the trip is for her 40th birthday, and another couple are meeting us there.

and anxiety is not actually a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured. anxiety, or at least overactive anxiety, can be. it's a cognitive disorder. it's not a chemical imbalance.
Paul, what you're going through totally sucks and I'm sorry to hear it's happening to you. I know you have family issues that you deal with, too; it sounds overwhelming. I'm glad you're still here - not just here on the site, but here in general.

What I know about anxiety is that avoidance of things that make you anxious just reinforces the anxiety. It feels better in the short term but hurts in the long term. This gets to the "cognitive disorder" aspect; the reduction of anxiety with avoidance is strongly positively reinforcing to your brain that there really is something to be afraid of and that avoidance is the safest choice. The crucial thing for treatment is to not avoid, which you can do in tiny steps (graded exposure) or huge steps (flooding), but for it to work you need to stay in the situation long enough for the anxiety to diminish on its own so that you brain can start to re-learn that nothing bad actually happens. Obviously, this is tough. I really hope you decide to go ahead with the trip, both because I think it would be good not to avoid it, but also because it sounds like you deserve a good break.

(and I would quibble with your statement that "anxiety is not a mental illness. mental illnesses cannot be cured". I don't believe either clause is true; however, this isn't the time or place to argue )
yes, I have done a lot of reading on the subject, and know all too well that avoidance helps in the short term, but not in the long term. I will be going to vegas, that is 100%. just how I deal with it is the question.

unfortunately, in my experience of being both introverted and anxious, is that vacations like these don't turn out to be a break at all. I need a vacation after the vacation. A break for me is relaxing on a beach (my anxiety, I noticed over the summer, is at its lowest when out at my wife's family cottage). not the hustle of a busy city with bright lights and constant stimulation. so we'll see.

although, exhaustion COULD turn out to be a benefit for me, in that it will release a whole whack of nervous tension.

Is there anything about the trip that you might possibly like/find tolerable? Maybe take a trip out of the city to the desert, go for a hike or something? I've never been to Vegas but I understand there is beautiful nature around in a very accessible way. I can certainly understand not wanting to deal with the bright lights/big city aspect. It sounds like your wife is really supportive so maybe she'd go for this.

its hard to explain. Its not that i wont like it. Im sure i will have a blast while there. Its the over thinking and anticipation leading up to it that is a good portion of it. Uncertainty and not being at home base is what seems to get to me now. Before anxiety took over, i loved doing stuff and going to placs like this. It is also partly that my anxiety has manifested itself in a way that can sometimes limit my activities (IBS type symptoms), which makes my anxiety worse, which makes my stomach worse, and around and around we go.

I also get nervous that my sickness might affect other people and our collective plans. The guilt factor is extreme.

brianlux · November 2015

Hugh-- Last time I was near Vegas, too tired to push on any further, we camped out near a mosquito infested spring in an otherwise very arid environment. At night, we could see this massive energy glow on the horizon to the north east of us that was coming from the city of Las Vegas. Even though I was thinking about what was lost to make all those kilowatts, I couldn't help but feel the energy of the place just by seeing that glow. It even seemed strangely inviting. Whenever you get a little edgy being there, just think about all those nasty mosquitoes that are not pestering you! Keep it on the good side as best you can and will look forward to hearing how it goes.

Annafalk · November 2015

Great story Brian, and Hugh try to think that you only have a couple of days in Vegas, take the chance to enjoy it, you'll soon be home again. Have fun and think positive. (I think it's always interesting when visiting places like that, to observe people and think a little about why are they here? What is there life story about? How could she choose that dress? etc., I know I'm weird

brianlux · November 2015

Annafalk said:
Great story Brian, and Hugh try to think that you only have a couple of days in Vegas, take the chance to enjoy it, you'll soon be home again. Have fun and think positive. (I think it's always interesting when visiting places like that, to observe people and think a little about why are they here? What is there life story about? How could she choose that dress? etc., I know I'm weird

Also a good idea, Annafalk. People watching is fascinating and helps make for a good time.

Sprunkn7 · November 2015

I was thinking the Paris attacks will bring a lot of anxiety to the surface for people. I'm all the way over in CT and it brought a lot of post 911 memories back. Bastards.

Anxiety

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