A world governed by reason and emotion

oftenreading said:

I liked a lot of things about this article, and I'm glad you posted it because I would never have seen it otherwise. I do, however, struggle with the whole idea of such fantastically expensive luxury goods (and these items aren't even close to the worst of them). I understand what he means about paying the workers a fair wage and I'm all for that, but to me the whole idea of someone paying more for one jacket than most of the world's population makes in a whole year is repellant. Who really needs a $500 sweater? Is it fundamentally better than a $100 sweater, or just another way to show off?

Sorry to bring negativity to the otherwise great discussion on this thread

As someone who probably hasn't spent $50 on a sweater at one time, let alone $500, I think that's fair. That being said, I recognize that the rich have the right to buy luxury goods, and if the rich didn't want to buy luxury goods - companies like this simply wouldn't exist, so the demand is there. I can't blame a businessman for opting to occupy a niche - if I were to point fingers, it would be in the hands of the buyers of lavish goods themselves: they enable these industries to live on. That being said, it's a free market, and it'd be hard to argue to a buyer of a $500 sweater that he or she should not live so lavishly because... because what?

oftenreading said:

Those are valid points, and I'm certainly not suggesting that people should be prohibited from buying luxury goods, or that such businesses should be proscribed. I just see it as a real waste of what that money could be doing instead, and a sad comment on the values of the people buying that stuff.

And rr, been watching a little too much Lion King lately?

Is it a waste? I think the answer to that will remain entirely subjective, as we all place different value on different things. Not to mention that value is typically measured by opportunity cost: when you have little money, you can choose to eat meals for 4 weeks, or buy the $500 cashmere sweater. When you have more money, you can do both. When your paycheque is in the millions of dollars, the cashmere sweater has essentially no opportunity cost, unless we placed charitable ventures on the same level of importance as the sweater. The reality is, few are selfless enough to do this, and people also have predetermined amounts of what a reasonable percentage of wealth one should give to good causes. So, if you're making millions of dollars per year, you opt to donate 50% of your income to charitable ventures, and you're left with a fraction of millions (say, a million), and a cashmere sweater still has nearly no opportunity cost to your life - I think you've earned the right to buy luxury goods if they make you feel good.

rr165892 said:

Ben,I think perceived value has to be factored in.
Example-I personally will splurge on better seats or vip,etc at a show or concert.That is what I enjoy so I put a higher value on it.You may feel Im wasting my money or that activity has no value to you and you view it as a waste.It really is to personal to chery pick.
And I don't think there is guilt as long an individual can or is benevolent in other ways or in other forms.(Time,volunteering,fund raising etc)

We're on the same page here

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

callen said:

rr165892 said:

Ben,I think perceived value has to be factored in.
Example-I personally will splurge on better seats or vip,etc at a show or concert.That is what I enjoy so I put a higher value on it.You may feel Im wasting my money or that activity has no value to you and you view it as a waste.It really is to personal to chery pick.
And I don't think there is guilt as long an individual can or is benevolent in other ways or in other forms.(Time,volunteering,fund raising etc)

Ed " people in the front look at the people in the rear, people in the front look at the people in the rear".

Like you, have splurged on premium tickets. Obviously as we were feet from each other at such an event. Have though looked at those less fortunate and realized how lucky I was.

As to charitable causes and volunteering, drive is from ones personal gains rather than the perceived beneficiary. Not a bad thing and people are helped but giving is a selfish act.

Hm. Seems the clocks have been turned back on our behalves, which I consider a good thing!

Most everything we do is a selfish act: even if we ignore the 'recognition from society' elements, I'm convinced that to do good for others eventually comes around to benefit us personally. Call it karma if you'd like, but I think to enable others to self-actualize on their dreams through the honing and realization of their skills, civilization can progress in ways it couldn't otherwise. As I've said elsewhere - how many people with brainpower equivalent of Steve Jobs/Albert Einstein/Nicolas Tesla/Elon Musk have lived and died toiling fields without a chance of having an education or even a way to communicate with the world at large?

There are ways to minimize the selfishness of our charitable ventures. For the 'recognition from society' element, we can minimize that through giving anonymously. We can also donate our time (something with an opportunity cost to the rich and poor, unlike money).

jeffbr said:

callen said:

benjs said:

callen said:

And that sucks. Takes two to tangle and was unfairly ganged up on.

Closet conservative 2

Pinko pacifist Liberals 0.

With all due respect, I didn't make this thread for name-calling, people categorizing, competing, nor picking fights. There are enough other threads you can do that in.

As for your comment before about giving being inherently selfish, one can minimize the selfishness of a charitable act (though not eliminate it entirely) by giving anonymously, without seeking recognition. One of the things Judaism gets right in my opinion is that it labels this as the 'highest' form of charity.

Yeah well note of BSL being banned was the catalyst. Sure we'll get lots of "yeah I agree with you Ben" posts after yours. Don't care to be popular as BSL didn't care. That's why it sucks even more.

All giving regardless of public knowledge is for ones own benefit. Yes this is not palatable and one may want to believe otherwise but it is what it is.

I'm with you here, Callen. I have said this for years, and it is an unpopular opinion, but it is also and interesting philosophical debate which has gone on forever.

This sums up how I feel about charitable acts, and altruism:
"Altruistic acts are self-interested, if not because they relieve anxiety, then perhaps because they lead to pleasant feelings of pride and satisfaction; the expectation of honor or reciprocation; or the greater likelihood of a place in heaven; and even if neither of the above, then at least because they relieve unpleasant feelings such as the guilt or shame of not having acted at all."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/does-true-altruism-exist

That doesn't mean that we can't be altruistic, or that we shouldn't be charitable, but it is a recognition that all charitable acts have some degree of selfishness, even if it is a secondary motivation.

I don't expect we can ever eliminate the selfishness in each and every act we perform - my theory is that if you do something that serves yourself exclusively, or you can alternatively do something that serves yourself as well as others, why the hell not do that? My theory is also that doing the latter will almost always better your life in greater ways (in the long-term) than the former.

jeffbr said:

Good thoughts, Benjs and Hedo! I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't strive to be charitable or altruistic. Even if there are secondary or tertiary self-interested motivations, the mere act of doing something to benefit someone else has to ultimately be a positive. I love to make others smile and to do nice things for people. But I recognize that I do so partly because it gives me a good feeling, which is the self-interested part. Enlightened self-interest is a concept or philosophy that makes sense to me.

Jeff, I consider myself an empathetic person and couldn't agree more! It pains me to see others in pain, it pleases me to see others pleased. Selfish or not, it's how I feel life is best lived