If the women choose to be there, it is not demeaning IMO. They aren't being forced to be out there.
Women do demeaning things all the time. Just because they don't know any better it doesn't mean it isn't demeaning to women. Plus, it's not just demeaning to the cheerleaders. It's demeaning to all women.
Does that mean high school cheerleadering is demeaning as well?
I don't believe it's demeaning for a woman to use her body. That's not to say a woman can't do demeaning things with her body. But just by being cheerleader, a dancer, or a swimsuit model in no way automatically makes it demeaning.
Well I guess that depends on the type of high school cheerleading you're talking about, but no, competitive cheerleading isn't demeaning. I'm talking about the sex shows they have at NFL games, etc. FTR, any stripper (if that's what you mean by "dancer") is definitely demeaning herself and all women. Of course a woman who is modelling a swimsuit isn't the same - that's selling a swimsuit to other women, Same with underwear models. If you're talking about the "swimsuit models" in Sports Illustrated or women in swimsuits lying on the hood of a sports car, yes, demeaning. It's definitely not black and white! But the general rule is when women are presented as sex objects, it's demeaning. Now I'm not saying I fly into some feminist rage every time I see gratuitously sexy photo of a woman, lol. But I don't find it hard to understand what is ultimately demeaning for women and what isn't.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
If the women choose to be there, it is not demeaning IMO. They aren't being forced to be out there.
Women do demeaning things all the time. Just because they don't know any better it doesn't mean it isn't demeaning to women. Plus, it's not just demeaning to the cheerleaders. It's demeaning to all women.
Does that mean high school cheerleadering is demeaning as well?
I don't believe it's demeaning for a woman to use her body. That's not to say a woman can't do demeaning things with her body. But just by being cheerleader, a dancer, or a swimsuit model in no way automatically makes it demeaning.
Well I guess that depends on the type of high school cheerleading you're talking about, but no, competitive cheerleading isn't demeaning. I'm talking about the sex shows they have at NFL games, etc. FTR, any stripper (if that's what you mean by "dancer") is definitely demeaning herself and all women. Of course a woman who is modelling a swimsuit isn't the same - that's selling a swimsuit to other women, Same with underwear models. If you're talking about the "swimsuit models" in Sports Illustrated or women in swimsuits lying on the hood of a sports car, yes, demeaning. It's definitely not black and white! But the general rule is when women are presented as sex objects, it's demeaning. Now I'm not saying I fly into some feminist rage every time I see gratuitously sexy photo of a woman, lol. But I don't find it hard to understand what is ultimately demeaning for women and what isn't.
I definitely have a different opinion than you on that. But I'm not a woman.
I don't see it as demeaning, if a woman has a look that is generally attractive to most, why not use the tools she was given? If I was born with great physical attributes I would be an underwear model if it paid well. Why not? If I was born super smart I'd be a rocket scientist. If I was freakishly tall, I'd be a basketball player. If I was born a hot chick, the capitalist in me might bang old rich dudes for money behind the dumpsters at walmart. I think sometimes we don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and determine what is right for them on a person to person basis. As a dude, I am guessing I couldn't completely understand a female point of view on the subject. Just my two cents.
I don't see it as demeaning, if a woman has a look that is generally attractive to most, why not use the tools she was given? If I was born with great physical attributes I would be an underwear model if it paid well. Why not? If I was born super smart I'd be a rocket scientist. If I was freakishly tall, I'd be a basketball player. If I was born a hot chick, the capitalist in me might bang old rich dudes for money behind the dumpsters at walmart. I think sometimes we don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and determine what is right for them on a person to person basis. As a dude, I am guessing I couldn't completely understand a female point of view on the subject. Just my two cents.
You know, I kind of see where Ms. Soul is coming from (though I figure if women choose their path with a clear head, it's on them and I wish them well). I mean, who hasn't watched porn?
WYTM (excuse the nickname ), I was with you in concept until the part about getting it on amidst dumpsters. That's gotta be some kind of low. Being paid to fuck a stranger amid the stench of trash...it'd break my heart if my lovely young niece did that. Well, any woman with conscience or pride.
I'm all for capitalism but to sell such intimacy, no bueno.
I don't see it as demeaning, if a woman has a look that is generally attractive to most, why not use the tools she was given? If I was born with great physical attributes I would be an underwear model if it paid well. Why not? If I was born super smart I'd be a rocket scientist. If I was freakishly tall, I'd be a basketball player. If I was born a hot chick, the capitalist in me might bang old rich dudes for money behind the dumpsters at walmart. I think sometimes we don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and determine what is right for them on a person to person basis. As a dude, I am guessing I couldn't completely understand a female point of view on the subject. Just my two cents.
I agree with your second to last sentence. The rest is ludicrous to me and rather offensive - sorry, no offense meant to you, just being honest. FTR, i know that everyone has the right to make their own decisions... but again, that has nothing to do with whether or not their actions are demeaning to themselves or women in general. Demeaning doesn't = against their will.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't see it as demeaning, if a woman has a look that is generally attractive to most, why not use the tools she was given? If I was born with great physical attributes I would be an underwear model if it paid well. Why not? If I was born super smart I'd be a rocket scientist. If I was freakishly tall, I'd be a basketball player. If I was born a hot chick, the capitalist in me might bang old rich dudes for money behind the dumpsters at walmart. I think sometimes we don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and determine what is right for them on a person to person basis. As a dude, I am guessing I couldn't completely understand a female point of view on the subject. Just my two cents.
You know, I kind of see where Ms. Soul is coming from (though I figure if women choose their path with a clear head, it's on them and I wish them well). I mean, who hasn't watched porn?
WYTM (excuse the nickname ), I was with you in concept until the part about getting it on amidst dumpsters. That's gotta be some kind of low. Being paid to fuck a stranger amid the stench of trash...it'd break my heart if my lovely young niece did that. Well, any woman with conscience or pride.
I'm all for capitalism but to sell such intimacy, no bueno.
I was just trying to add a little humor. My overall point is still the same though. If that sort of thing makes someone happy and they are good with it. Who am I to say they shouldn't? I wouldn't necessarily want someone I know to do it, but I try and let people live the way they want without judging. Even if I don't agree with it.
I don't see it as demeaning, if a woman has a look that is generally attractive to most, why not use the tools she was given? If I was born with great physical attributes I would be an underwear model if it paid well. Why not? If I was born super smart I'd be a rocket scientist. If I was freakishly tall, I'd be a basketball player. If I was born a hot chick, the capitalist in me might bang old rich dudes for money behind the dumpsters at walmart. I think sometimes we don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and determine what is right for them on a person to person basis. As a dude, I am guessing I couldn't completely understand a female point of view on the subject. Just my two cents.
I agree with your second to last sentence. The rest is ludicrous to me and rather offensive - sorry, no offense meant to you, just being honest.
Didn't mean to offend anyone. I don't understand why people making decisions about what is right for them specifically, is ludicrous. I was just speaking from my own perspective on what I might do if I was given certain attributes. Sorry if I did it in an offensive way. "All thinking with our different brains!"
I was just trying to add a little humor. My overall point is still the same though. If that sort of thing makes someone happy and they are good with it. Who am I to say they shouldn't? I wouldn't necessarily want someone I know to do it, but I try and let people live the way they want without judging. Even if I don't agree with it.
I was just trying to add a little humor. My overall point is still the same though. If that sort of thing makes someone happy and they are good with it. Who am I to say they shouldn't? I wouldn't necessarily want someone I know to do it, but I try and let people live the way they want without judging. Even if I don't agree with it.
(I did say I MIGHT do it, not definitely! Haha)
I hear ya and pretty much on the same page.
Cool beans!
And just to be clear, I am a Buffalo Bills fan and it took me a few games to even realize they weren't there anymore. I guess it depends on what you are attracted too. I've never been into cheerleaders much so I probably haven't thought about it a whole lot before I saw this thread.
I don't see it as demeaning, if a woman has a look that is generally attractive to most, why not use the tools she was given? If I was born with great physical attributes I would be an underwear model if it paid well. Why not? If I was born super smart I'd be a rocket scientist. If I was freakishly tall, I'd be a basketball player. If I was born a hot chick, the capitalist in me might bang old rich dudes for money behind the dumpsters at walmart. I think sometimes we don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and determine what is right for them on a person to person basis. As a dude, I am guessing I couldn't completely understand a female point of view on the subject. Just my two cents.
I agree with your second to last sentence. The rest is ludicrous to me and rather offensive - sorry, no offense meant to you, just being honest.
Didn't mean to offend anyone. I don't understand why people making decisions about what is right for them specifically, is ludicrous. I was just speaking from my own perspective on what I might do if I was given certain attributes. Sorry if I did it in an offensive way. "All thinking with our different brains!"
But it's not about judging individuals. I actually couldn't care less on that level. What I care about is how their actions affect every other woman and how they're viewed in society, and how that affects male perceptions, and especially how it affects the perceptions of children about women, boys and girls alike. Having those cheerleaders (or boxing babes or wrestling slut, prostitutes, strippers, hooters waitresses, etc etc etc) paraded around as sex objects for the pleasure of men has a profound influence on how kids develop their ideas about women and men alike, and that bugs the shit out of me and definitely fuels issues like girls feeling like they have to sexually please boys to be accepted, boys thinking they have a right to women (1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted at some point in their life, fyi), contributes to sexism overall, without a doubt, has a direct relation to women's worth being unfairly judged by their appearance compared to men, Every woman who allows herself to be viewed as an object has a negative impact on a larger scale. One small part of a much larger problem. If it were just about some girl making a dumb decision for herself I would not have an issue with it.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm not sure why anyone would feel demeaned by a stripper or a cheerleader or a hooker. It's their life. PJSoull, are you saying that every stripper is demeaning the female gender every time she walks on stage?
I'm not sure why anyone would feel demeaned by a stripper or a cheerleader or a hooker. It's their life. PJSoull, are you saying that every stripper is demeaning the female gender every time she walks on stage?
I think my last post explains that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I was just trying to add a little humor. My overall point is still the same though. If that sort of thing makes someone happy and they are good with it. Who am I to say they shouldn't? I wouldn't necessarily want someone I know to do it, but I try and let people live the way they want without judging. Even if I don't agree with it.
(I did say I MIGHT do it, not definitely! Haha)
I hear ya and pretty much on the same page.
Cool beans!
And just to be clear, I am a Buffalo Bills fan and it took me a few games to even realize they weren't there anymore. I guess it depends on what you are attracted too. I've never been into cheerleaders much so I probably haven't thought about it a whole lot before I saw this thread.
if you don't even notice them what's the point? look I'm a guy and I guess somewhat of a hypocrite as I will view sexy women as much as the next guy, but to me the NFL cheerleaders and cheerleaders at any professional sport mostly serve no purpose other than to titillate (pun intended). for a league that is coming off a domestic abuse scandal sending women onto the field with shorts halfway up their yahoos and butts might not be the most appropriate thing to be doing.
I am far far away from being any kind of feminist sympathizer in fact I think sometimes I think those types of women go too far but as I get older I see a lot of how we as a society treat women is sad and pathetic. one thing recently that I thought was awesome was the speech on feminism that Emma Watson (yes from Harry Potter) gave to the UN. One of her points was that men need to help lead the world in how the world treats women. google her speech. it was fantastic.
^^^ Have seen that, and totally agree. That is exactly where I am coming from. I'm no prude, seriously, lol. Anyone who knows me knows that! But this is a bigger issue, and i think all.of this shit has been so normalized that people (men and women!) with really good intentions don't even see the issues, and then feed the problem themselves without even realizing it. Thank you for saying that pjhawks; it definitely gives me hope when men understand and speak up! There are are few outspoken men on this subject, but very, very few.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I was just trying to add a little humor. My overall point is still the same though. If that sort of thing makes someone happy and they are good with it. Who am I to say they shouldn't? I wouldn't necessarily want someone I know to do it, but I try and let people live the way they want without judging. Even if I don't agree with it.
(I did say I MIGHT do it, not definitely! Haha)
I hear ya and pretty much on the same page.
Cool beans!
And just to be clear, I am a Buffalo Bills fan and it took me a few games to even realize they weren't there anymore. I guess it depends on what you are attracted too. I've never been into cheerleaders much so I probably haven't thought about it a whole lot before I saw this thread.
if you don't even notice them what's the point? look I'm a guy and I guess somewhat of a hypocrite as I will view sexy women as much as the next guy, but to me the NFL cheerleaders and cheerleaders at any professional sport mostly serve no purpose other than to titillate (pun intended). for a league that is coming off a domestic abuse scandal sending women onto the field with shorts halfway up their yahoos and butts might not be the most appropriate thing to be doing.
I am far far away from being any kind of feminist sympathizer in fact I think sometimes I think those types of women go too far but as I get older I see a lot of how we as a society treat women is sad and pathetic. one thing recently that I thought was awesome was the speech on feminism that Emma Watson (yes from Harry Potter) gave to the UN. One of her points was that men need to help lead the world in how the world treats women. google her speech. it was fantastic.
No, I understand the point of having them. A lot of men are attracted to and into them. It just doesn't do much for me personally. I can't speak for anyone else. I was just trying to convey my lack of any real knowledge about cheerleaders I guess. I think I did see that speech. I will have to watch it again. For the record, my significant other happens to be a very well respected, high level executive at a global corporation. I've watched her work incredibly hard and earn it all on merit with integrity. She is an incredible role model to young women. Those characteristics are the kind of thing that draws my attention and respect, not t and a. I forget sometimes I'm not just shooting the shit in my living room with people who know me and understand me. I would hate to come off as some kind of hypocrite or sexist because of some random thoughts on this subject. I can see your points PJsoul. I have just never been able to look at it from a female perspective. (Panty hose make me chafe)
No worries! Just because someone says something that offends me doesn't mean I find the person offensive. I have already developed full respect for you, and me disagreeing with something you say isn't going to suddenly change that! ... I always hope that's how others are going to react to myself, since I'm such an opinionated loudmouth, lol.... it's hit and miss I think. :P
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think we can all agree these tight ass owners should pay them more. I mean, I wouldn't be shaking my half naked ass in a Buffalo winter for anything less than 7.50 an hour!
i gotta tell ya the truth. i clicked on a picture & changed the zoom from 125% to 200% changed it back to 125% (where i keep it) just 3 - 7 seconds later (no one was injured or violated) who the frigg came up w/ nearly nude football? there is near nude rugby too. these are tough gals all around i tell you that. you ever slide on grass w/ just your shorts on not pants.... yeah shorts? ouch. i done that playin baseball... something almost roadrash like. still a massive burn & bruise covering my outter thigh
(yes i know men play rugby & football/soccer in shorts)
Comments
FTR, any stripper (if that's what you mean by "dancer") is definitely demeaning herself and all women. Of course a woman who is modelling a swimsuit isn't the same - that's selling a swimsuit to other women, Same with underwear models. If you're talking about the "swimsuit models" in Sports Illustrated or women in swimsuits lying on the hood of a sports car, yes, demeaning. It's definitely not black and white! But the general rule is when women are presented as sex objects, it's demeaning. Now I'm not saying I fly into some feminist rage every time I see gratuitously sexy photo of a woman, lol. But I don't find it hard to understand what is ultimately demeaning for women and what isn't.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
WYTM (excuse the nickname
I'm all for capitalism but to sell such intimacy, no bueno.
FTR, i know that everyone has the right to make their own decisions... but again, that has nothing to do with whether or not their actions are demeaning to themselves or women in general. Demeaning doesn't = against their will.
(I did say I MIGHT do it, not definitely! Haha)
Cool beans!
I am far far away from being any kind of feminist sympathizer in fact I think sometimes I think those types of women go too far but as I get older I see a lot of how we as a society treat women is sad and pathetic. one thing recently that I thought was awesome was the speech on feminism that Emma Watson (yes from Harry Potter) gave to the UN. One of her points was that men need to help lead the world in how the world treats women. google her speech. it was fantastic.
It's just not that simple.
(and to pjhawks, Emma Watson kicks ass. What a well-spoken young lady she is. Loved her speech, words, thoughts)
http://sociology.about.com/od/Current-Events-in-Sociological-Context/fl/Full-Transcript-of-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality-at-the-UN.htm
i gotta tell ya the truth. i clicked on a picture & changed the zoom from 125% to 200%
changed it back to 125% (where i keep it) just 3 - 7 seconds later (no one was injured or violated)
who the frigg came up w/ nearly nude football? there is near nude rugby too. these are tough gals all around i tell you that. you ever slide on grass w/ just your shorts on not pants.... yeah shorts? ouch. i done that playin baseball... something almost roadrash like. still a massive burn & bruise covering my outter thigh
(yes i know men play rugby & football/soccer in shorts)
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce