Elliot Rodger - California killing spree - all the issues

Thirty Bills Unpaid · June 2014

unsung said:
What if we don't comply?

Are you willing to turn 100M gun owners into felons? Better start building those prisons.

That's just talking tough like those 'tough guys' at the Clive Bundy ranch. There wont be too many fierce freedom fighters.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · June 2014

unsung said:
Do you really expect me to follow laws that would turn peaceful people into criminals? These politicians aren't our masters.

It's not the politicians pushing for such reforms- its the majority of your fellow countrymen that you share your land with.

That's the price to pay living in a democracy- majority rules.

Again... don't worry about it though. The 'minority' in this issue will have their way.

i_lov_it · June 2014

unsung said:

i_lov_it said:

Gern Blansten said:

JonnyPistachio said:

Gern Blansten said:
This is the gun culture in the USA
The only thing I ever have to add to these threads is that I think that (sadly), its too late. The gun culture in the USA is just going to get worse. I believe this because I think we really are getting desensitized to these mass shootings, and many of us who want better laws or more accurate registration, or better physiological evaluations are learning that this might never happen. So some folks like me, who are concerned about how to defend against the possibility of mass shooting are just going to go get guns themselves, and join the spiraling out of control gun culture of the US. (i'm still not getting a gun though, but the point is, that many like me, are).
It's going to get worse but I think that will be the catalyst to big reforms...

I believe it will get to the point where there is little resistance. Opinion polls reflect that the great majority of the population want stricter gun control.
People have to relise that it should be a Privilege not a Right...and I am all for Stricter Gun Control.

Ok, I'll play. What do you do with the millions of firearms already in possession?

Well like Thirty Bills Unpaid said...Bring in a Buy back Programme we did that in Australia after the Port Arthur Massacre and also Made it Law and it worked.

unsung · June 2014

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:
Do you really expect me to follow laws that would turn peaceful people into criminals? These politicians aren't our masters.

It's not the politicians pushing for such reforms- its the majority of your fellow countrymen that you share your land with.

That's the price to pay living in a democracy- majority rules.

Again... don't worry about it though. The 'minority' in this issue will have their way.

I'm impelled to correct you, the US is a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy.

The majority isn't supposed to rule (even though your facts about the majority wanting more gun control are incorrect) because when the majority rules it violates the rights of the minority. Case in point; gay marriage, voting, etc.

Gern Blansten · June 2014

unsung said:
What if we don't comply?

Are you willing to turn 100M gun owners into felons? Better start building those prisons.

I don't think you become a felon...it's no different than not renewing your car registration. If you get caught you pay a fine.

Registration is a means of control but it is also a means to direct funding. Registration fees could be used to fund gun owner education, training, cooperation with law enforcement, etc.

This recent killing in Las Vegas is a good example. When two cops are eating lunch and see two people with assault rifles coming through the door do they need to draw their weapons in case they need to defend themselves? Open carry just puts everyone on edge....including the police.

I tend to defer to experts in their fields on things like this....the police don't like it and I support that.

i_lov_it · June 2014

Gern Blansten said:

unsung said:
What if we don't comply?

Are you willing to turn 100M gun owners into felons? Better start building those prisons.
I don't think you become a felon...it's no different than not renewing your car registration. If you get caught you pay a fine.

Registration is a means of control but it is also a means to direct funding. Registration fees could be used to fund gun owner education, training, cooperation with law enforcement, etc.

This recent killing in Las Vegas is a good example. When two cops are eating lunch and see two people with assault rifles coming through the door do they need to draw their weapons in case they need to defend themselves? Open carry just puts everyone on edge....including the police.

I tend to defer to experts in their fields on things like this....the police don't like it and I support that.

I agree every time you don't comply the Fine just gets Bigger and I'm sure the Majority of Law Abiding Citizens will be on Board with it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · June 2014

Gern Blansten said:

unsung said:
What if we don't comply?

Are you willing to turn 100M gun owners into felons? Better start building those prisons.
I don't think you become a felon...it's no different than not renewing your car registration. If you get caught you pay a fine.

Registration is a means of control but it is also a means to direct funding. Registration fees could be used to fund gun owner education, training, cooperation with law enforcement, etc.

This recent killing in Las Vegas is a good example. When two cops are eating lunch and see two people with assault rifles coming through the door do they need to draw their weapons in case they need to defend themselves? Open carry just puts everyone on edge....including the police.

I tend to defer to experts in their fields on things like this....the police don't like it and I support that.

Toss in confiscation as well.

unsung · June 2014

That won't go over well.

So you guys are ok with the police murdering citizens based on a new law that would turn the law-abiding into criminals based simply on some whim of anti gun politicians?

I just want to be sure, because that would be what would happen. And don't give me the whole follow the law bullshit, many laws are unconstitutional and have been determined to be so. Gay marriage anyone? Or do you favor when the majority kept a ban on that as well? Wait, I get it. You guys like bans when they favor your belief system, because we know how people are treated here if they are against something like gay marriage.

jmuscatello · June 2014

There are some logical first steps that could be made. Federal registration and licensing would be a start. Another is raising the minimum age for purchase and possession from 18 to 21, an age group responsible for a huge proportion of violent crime and mass murders, and the age group in which mental illness often first presents (and even in the absence of mental illness - an age group in which impulse control is relatively sketchy).
An 18 year old kid can legally go buy a shotgun - no parental consent required - but has to wait 3 more years to buy a beer? C'mon.

But my personal preference would be whatever it takes - a federal buyback, even confiscation - just to get gun ownership rates down to a more sane level (to me, that's under 5%). It's just that it's going to take a while to get there....

jmuscatello · June 2014

And unsung - not trying to put you on the spot here, we already know we disagree - I'm just curious how far apart we are. What do you think would be a "sane" gun ownership rate for the US?

Gern Blansten · June 2014

unsung said:
That won't go over well.

So you guys are ok with the police murdering citizens based on a new law that would turn the law-abiding into criminals based simply on some whim of anti gun politicians?

I just want to be sure, because that would be what would happen. And don't give me the whole follow the law bullshit, many laws are unconstitutional and have been determined to be so. Gay marriage anyone? Or do you favor when the majority kept a ban on that as well? Wait, I get it. You guys like bans when they favor your belief system, because we know how people are treated here if they are against something like gay marriage.

No....murdering citizens is illegal no matter who does it.

unsung · June 2014

jmuscatello said:
And unsung - not trying to put you on the spot here, we already know we disagree - I'm just curious how far apart we are. What do you think would be a "sane" gun ownership rate for the US?

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Gun ownership rate? If someone is of sound mind and body I see no reason that they shouldn't own a firearm for whatever purpose they deem necessary. Of course, that being said that no harm is done to another person minus the use of force in self defense.

I believe in the nonaggression principle, do no harm to others. I trump that only with the need for self-defense, in that case as a last resort someone should have every right to defend them and theirs.

Al of the solutions offered here does nothing to curb ILLEGAL gun use. Yes, you will have those that were legal until they used the weapon illegally. We can only try to weed out the insane people.

And please, I love discussing this with those that have an open mind, so I'm never put on the spot, no worries.

But confiscation will NEVER be in my cards, unless the individual has been deemed a threat to themselves or others. Passing some bullshit law to confiscate from people that were not doing anything other than collecting or having fun on the range will never be acceptable. It would cause a war despite what some here think.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · June 2014

What's wrong with accountability?

Confiscation would only be a measure taken in the event one didn't comply with registration demands.

unsung · June 2014

So you want me to register like a sex offender would?

Gern Blansten · June 2014

unsung said:

jmuscatello said:
And unsung - not trying to put you on the spot here, we already know we disagree - I'm just curious how far apart we are. What do you think would be a "sane" gun ownership rate for the US?
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Gun ownership rate? If someone is of sound mind and body I see no reason that they shouldn't own a firearm for whatever purpose they deem necessary. Of course, that being said that no harm is done to another person minus the use of force in self defense.

I believe in the nonaggression principle, do no harm to others. I trump that only with the need for self-defense, in that case as a last resort someone should have every right to defend them and theirs.

Al of the solutions offered here does nothing to curb ILLEGAL gun use. Yes, you will have those that were legal until they used the weapon illegally. We can only try to weed out the insane people.

And please, I love discussing this with those that have an open mind, so I'm never put on the spot, no worries.

But confiscation will NEVER be in my cards, unless the individual has been deemed a threat to themselves or others. Passing some bullshit law to confiscate from people that were not doing anything other than collecting or having fun on the range will never be acceptable. It would cause a war despite what some here think.

Making weapons harder to get definitely curbs illegal gun use. I think that is all that most of us ask for....just make more hoops to jump through.

Gern Blansten · June 2014

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/two-cops-three-others-killed-las-vegas-shooting-spree-n125766

"A shopper, Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, of Las Vegas had a concealed weapon and decided to confront Jerad Miller, police said. As he walked toward the suspect, Amanda Miller came up behind him and shot him several times in the ribs, police said."

Perfect example of a false sense of security. If he would have done what they said he would still be alive.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · June 2014

unsung said:
So you want me to register like a sex offender would?

Nope. I want you to license your gun like automobile owners license their cars.

Don't do anything stupid with it and everything will be okay.

dignin · June 2014

unsung said:
So you want me to register like a sex offender would?

Like a car owner does.

Gern Blansten · June 2014

dignin said:

unsung said:
So you want me to register like a sex offender would?
Like a car owner does.

car owner
motorcycle owner
snowmobile owner
RV owner
boat owner
jetski owner

why is this such a travesty?

unsung · June 2014

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:
So you want me to register like a sex offender would?
Nope. I want you to license your gun like automobile owners license their cars.

Don't do anything stupid with it and everything will be okay.

Driving a car is a privilege, owning a firearm is a right.

There is a difference. Don't use the car logic when you are one of those that don't want it used when stats show that more people die in autos than are killed by guns.

You can't have it both ways.

Elliot Rodger - California killing spree - all the issues

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