Jewish Settler Attacks = Terrorism

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  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    yosi said:

    I think Native Americans might have an interesting perspective for you Badbrains.

    Oh I know it well, so Yosi, are you admitting Israel IS STEALING LAND that's NOT THERES? Are you comparing the two. Just curious.

    I'm not trying to start an argument with you yosi, I think I've had a pretty good back and forth with you.

    And Cate, agree 100% with you, EVERY COUNTRY that stands down and allows this bullshit is GUILTY. And I also agree, NOT MUCH we can do. Not with a serious, powerful weapon like aipac.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Drowned Out said:

    Lovely. The great hate debate has devolved into a third grade word problem.
    If all Sniggles are Snogs, and some Snogs are Snoots, is it not fair to say that some Snoots are Sniggles?

    Really not sure what the point of this exercise is, if not to conflate.

    Exactly. It's just the same old tactic of Israel's apologists when they have nothing else up their sleeve.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    Drowned Out said:

    Also yosi - your article regarding dovish hawks and comments re people not understanding the complexity of Isaeli politics etc are just more examples of why the international community must act if Israel can't get it's house in order to end the occupation - the Palestinians fate cannot be left in the hands of 'liberal zionists'. Israel has had 50 years to figure this shit out. All the in-fighting and hand wringing done over how best to handle their prisoners, has done nothing but buy time for further land grabs and entrenchment in Palestinian territory.
    If the world can't act politically due to US involvement, then it's up to the people to act - social activism is what remains. Enter the steadily growing BDS movement.

    Right. And now we're also expected to believe that there are good Zionists, and bad Zionists, and if you can't appreciate the distinction, then that's just because you're ignorant of the vastly complex nature of the Israel/Palestine conflict. A complexity of quantum physics proportions, or of the deepest and most profound problems of philosophy. A conflict that's so complex, and is so entangled in subtle nuances, and the infinite, interweaving web of history, that we'd really be better off simply ignoring it - or in other words, we'd really be better off simply leaving it to the Israeli's to sort out.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    catefrances said:



    isreal arent acting on their own.. there are other countries, so called democracies and flag wavers of freedom and other assorted supposed democratioc bullshit who are complicit in israels actions every step of the way.

    So what? Does that mean we should accept this ongoing ethnic cleansing and land grab? Did the Germans act alone in their occupation of most of Europe? Did the Americans act alone in their war against Vietnam? Did the Apartheid South Africans act alone? No, they were helped by many other countries; most notably Israel and the U.S.
    So what's your point?
    There's been plenty of focus in these Israel/Palestine threads on the U.S's responsibility in this conflict.
    catefrances said:

    i know we all say we wouldnt allow it in our own countries(i know ive said it before) but when the force stealing the land has the backing of other powerful countries, then what would we really do???? what would we be capable of doing aside from dying?

    Protesting. Writing to your local representatives. Confronting lies on internet forums, and comments sections, supporting human rights organizations, e.t.c.
    What did people do to bring about the end of Apartheid in South Africa? Nothing?



  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    How exactly does recognizing complexity lead to inaction? If anything it leads to more effective action based on a more complete understanding of the situation. From my perspective it's clear that there are plenty of Israelis who for numerous reasons want to end the occupation. Your "simplicity," which is really just willful blindness, prevents you from acknowledging them and trying to empower them, which I think would be the most effective tactic for ending the occupation. Instead you are in favor of a tactic that alienates Israelis in general, and in particular disempowers the Israeli left. That to me seems completely counterproductive, and motivated more by a desire to punish Israel than to really aid the Palestinians. But that's just my perspective.

    Badbrains, I don't think that the two situations are analogous, if only because the Native Americans experienced what amounted to genocide, and nothing comparable has ever occurred in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (despite the wild rhetoric that some are prone to using). That said, yes, I do think that the settlements amount to a theft of Palestinian land. I don't think I've ever said otherwise (again, despite how some would like to construe my comments).
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Also, on the topic of simplicity, it strikes me that there is a certain type of person that is prone to thinking that world-historical problems are simple...teenagers. The idea that a conflict that is almost 100 years old, involving most of the major states in the Middle East (not exactly the least complex part of the world), a pair of competing nationalism (and that's not counting pan-Arab nationalism), Islamism, the legacies of both British and French colonialism as well as Cold War proxy conflict, the aftermath and legacy of the Holocaust, and the violent intersection of all three of the great monotheistic religions IS SIMPLE...is quite simply juvenile thinking.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    And B, you still haven't answered my last question to you.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Byrnzie said:


    catefrances said:

    i know we all say we wouldnt allow it in our own countries(i know ive said it before) but when the force stealing the land has the backing of other powerful countries, then what would we really do???? what would we be capable of doing aside from dying?

    Protesting. Writing to your local representatives. Confronting lies on internet forums, and comments sections, supporting human rights organizations, e.t.c.
    What did people do to bring about the end of Apartheid in South Africa? Nothing?



    i was speaking of what would we really do if we were in the shoes of the palestinians. we talk of not allowing it to happen to us.. but what would we really do given the same situation. THATS what i was talking about... ive always had a lot of time for you and your opinions over the years steve but sometimes your passion blinds you.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Also, on the topic of simplicity, it strikes me that there is a certain type of person that is prone to thinking that world-historical problems are simple...teenagers. The idea that a conflict that is almost 100 years old, involving most of the major states in the Middle East (not exactly the least complex part of the world), a pair of competing nationalism (and that's not counting pan-Arab nationalism), Islamism, the legacies of both British and French colonialism as well as Cold War proxy conflict, the aftermath and legacy of the Holocaust, and the violent intersection of all three of the great monotheistic religions IS SIMPLE...is quite simply juvenile thinking.

    Nobody said that all World historical problems are simple. But the facts of the Israeli occupation, and the facts of international law as they pertain to the Israeli occupation, are perfectly simple.

    Though I can see why it would benefit you to try and pretend otherwise.

    The Israeli occupation doesn't go back 100 years. 1967 wasn't 100 years ago. And it also doesn't involve most of the major states in the Middle East. It also has nothing to do with Islamism, and the legacies of both British and French colonialism, or the aftermath and legacy of the Holocaust.
    But apart from that, you're spot on.

    The occupation was initiated by 'an extremist settler movement and the policies that supported, nurtured, and sustained it.' There is no justification for it, however you may try to conflate it with 100 year old histories, Islamism, the holocaust, or anything else that you think bolsters your argument.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    yosi said:

    And B, you still haven't answered my last question to you.

    Ok, answer me this. If there are anti-Semites who express their anti-Semitism as criticism of Israel, and if those pointing out that anti-Semitism are routinely dismissed as simply trying to defend Israel by making bad-faith accusations of racism, is there a problem?

    It depends on whether you believe that the views of anybody who has ever expressed an abhorant opinion before in their lives should henceforth be dismissed out of hand.
    You're implying that said criticism deserves to be dismissed and condemned, not for what it contains, but because of where it comes from.

    And as to the answer to that, I'm not sure.

    Either way, it has no relevance to this message board, other than as another attempt to paint me as an anti-Semite, as you've done previously.

    As for whether any anti-Semite may use anything I, or anyone else, critical of Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign, for his or her own ends, I really couldn't give a flying fuck.
    If you think that should be grounds for stifling my criticism of an ugly race war against a largely defenseless people, then you're sorely mistaken.
    I will always combat racists, in any shape or form, including anti-Semites, and Israeli racism against Arabs.

    Does that answer your question? Or are you now gonna insinuate something else?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    catefrances said:

    Byrnzie said:


    catefrances said:

    i know we all say we wouldnt allow it in our own countries(i know ive said it before) but when the force stealing the land has the backing of other powerful countries, then what would we really do???? what would we be capable of doing aside from dying?

    Protesting. Writing to your local representatives. Confronting lies on internet forums, and comments sections, supporting human rights organizations, e.t.c.
    What did people do to bring about the end of Apartheid in South Africa? Nothing?



    i was speaking of what would we really do if we were in the shoes of the palestinians. we talk of not allowing it to happen to us.. but what would we really do given the same situation. THATS what i was talking about... ive always had a lot of time for you and your opinions over the years steve but sometimes your passion blinds you.
    France was a powerful country - still is - yet the Algerians managed to end their 100 year occupation of their country. It wasn't pretty, and many thousands died, but they eventually won their independence. The Vietnamese are another example, as are the Indians who overthrew the might of the British Empire.
    Independence movements can prevail. The Apartheid regime in South Africa had the backing of the U.S and Israel, yet the blacks there also managed to rid themselves of that regime - in their case, with a lot of help from the international community.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    As I said in our long pm session a couple of years ago, in which you tried to label me an anti-Semite. This was due to the fact that I posted three articles - in a thread entitled "Dispatches - children of Gaza" - on the subject of Israel's kidnapping of Palestinians, and one of those articles happened to contain something to do with the harvesting of organs, which you then took to be evidence of my being an anti-semite:

    'This has nothing to do with anti-semitism. I harbour no racist tendencies whatsoever.
    The Israel-Palestine conflict is a special case. It interests me especially due to the level of misinformation, subterfuge, and outright lies that envelop it. The 40 propaganda campaign instigated by the Israeli's in their attempts to justify the occupation and ongoing land-grab are quite extraordinary. And I think it should be every concerned citizens duty to expose this propaganda for what it is. The Zionists sought, and continue to seek, a Jewish state. That is, a state run by, and for, Jews. It's my belief that Ethnic nationalism should have no place in the modern World. And that's not racism on my part. It's the exact opposite of racism.'
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Byrnzie said:

    catefrances said:

    Byrnzie said:


    catefrances said:

    i know we all say we wouldnt allow it in our own countries(i know ive said it before) but when the force stealing the land has the backing of other powerful countries, then what would we really do???? what would we be capable of doing aside from dying?

    Protesting. Writing to your local representatives. Confronting lies on internet forums, and comments sections, supporting human rights organizations, e.t.c.
    What did people do to bring about the end of Apartheid in South Africa? Nothing?



    i was speaking of what would we really do if we were in the shoes of the palestinians. we talk of not allowing it to happen to us.. but what would we really do given the same situation. THATS what i was talking about... ive always had a lot of time for you and your opinions over the years steve but sometimes your passion blinds you.
    France was a powerful country - still is - yet the Algerians managed to end their 100 year occupation of their country. It wasn't pretty, and many thousands died, but they eventually won their independence. The Vietnamese are another example, as are the Indians who overthrew the might of the British Empire.
    Independence movements can prevail. The Apartheid regime in South Africa had the backing of the U.S and Israel, yet the blacks there also managed to rid themselves of that regime - in their case, with a lot of help from the international community.

    so were comparing the jews to the imperialist forces of france and britain?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    From my perspective it's clear that there are plenty of Israelis who for numerous reasons want to end the occupation. Your "simplicity," which is really just willful blindness, prevents you from acknowledging them and trying to empower them, which I think would be the most effective tactic for ending the occupation. Instead you are in favor of a tactic that alienates Israelis in general, and in particular disempowers the Israeli left. That to me seems completely counterproductive, and motivated more by a desire to punish Israel than to really aid the Palestinians. But that's just my perspective.

    Sure, I don't acknowledge them which is why I've quoted from Physicians for Human Rights and B'Tselem on numerous occasions.
    As for 'disempowering the Israeli left', that's just ridiculous.




  • i_lov_it
    i_lov_it Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,007
    edited May 2014
    Of Course they Should be Classed as Terrorist...It sees No Particular Race or Country...if they Want there Voices Heard then they Should go about it without about being Terrorists and Murderers.
    Post edited by i_lov_it on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    You misunderstood my question. I was not asking whether legitimate criticism of Israel should be disregarded based on whether the person making that criticism is an anti-Semite. I was asking about statements made by anti-Semites that purport to be "criticism" of Israel, but that are actually expressions of anti-Semitism. Is it problematic if such anti-Semitic expressions become a routine feature of left-discourse on Israel because anyone condemning such expressions is dismissed as crying anti-Semitism in bad-faith?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Also, B, is there a place in the world for Greece? For Armenia? Should the Kurds not be able to have a state of their own?

    And "race war"?! You've apparently turned what is in fact a conflict between two national movements over land into a racial conflict in your own mind. Why? What work does this misunderstanding do for you?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    I was asking about statements made by anti-Semites that purport to be "criticism" of Israel, but that are actually expressions of anti-Semitism. Is it problematic if such anti-Semitic expressions become a routine feature of left-discourse on Israel because anyone condemning such expressions is dismissed as crying anti-Semitism in bad-faith?

    Such as?

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    yosi said:

    Also, B, is there a place in the world for Greece? For Armenia? Should the Kurds not be able to have a state of their own?

    Yes, there is a place in the World for Greece, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about the right of the 'inhabitants' of Greece, or of France, or any other country, to their homeland. What we're talking about is the right of an ethnic group to live in one place, at the expense of any other group that may just happen to be in the way. It's called ethnic Nationalism, and as I've already said, it's an ugly and pernicious ideology that should have been seen the back of with the end of the Nazis, upon whose ideology it's based, as I again pointed out above.


    http://www.counterpunch.org/2009/10/14/fearsome-words/
    The Nazi conception of a Jewish people lies at the heart of Israel’s famous right of return. Don’t take my word for it. Listen instead to the AMERICAN-ISRAELI COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE (AICE), which describes itself as "a nonpartisan organization to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance – the values our nations share". To explain in what sense ‘Jews’ have a right to return to their homeland, the AICE states that "At present, the definition is based on Hitler’s Nuremberg Laws: the right of Return is granted to any individual with one Jewish grandparent, or who is married to someone with one Jewish grandparent. As a result, thousands of people with no meaningful connection to the Jewish people theoretically have the right to immigrate."

    ...What matters are not the citizens of a state, but the state itself, the totemic icon of ‘the Jewish people’. The fatal confusion that legitimized ethnic nationalism at the Paris Peace Conference now legitimizes Israel itself. When Zionists suggest that the French and Germans have a right to their states, they conveniently forget that this means the *inhabitants* of France and Germany, not those of some French or German *ancestry*, not a ‘people’ in the sense of an ethnic group. (The world was outraged when it suspected that Britain’s ‘patrial’ immigration laws were designed to favor those of ethnically British ancestry.) But ‘the Jewish people’ have a right to their state, and this is supposed to be some lofty ideal. Why? Because ethnic nationalism has taken on the cloak of civic nationalism, and we are too stupid to notice.
    yosi said:

    And "race war"?! You've apparently turned what is in fact a conflict between two national movements over land into a racial conflict in your own mind. Why? What work does this misunderstanding do for you?

    It's not a misunderstanding. The Israeli's are engaged in a war of ethnic cleansing based on a semi-racial category of Jewishness. The illegal settlements are for Jews only, and the Arabs are being dispossessed of their land, brutalized, and killed. Zionism wasn't designed to accommodate Arabs. It's a race war.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2009/10/14/fearsome-words/
    For the homeland to *belong* to the Jews is for them to have *sovereignty* there. Thus Article 7(a) of Israel’s Basic Law stipulates that "A candidates’ list shall not participate in the elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include… negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people." The Jewish people, in other words, are sovereign, and hold the power of life and death over all non-Jewish inhabitants under state control. Lest this seem overdramatic, note how the Israeli ministry of justice commented on a court case in March 2009: "The State of Israel is at war with the Palestinian people, people against people, collective against collective."

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Just want to point something out. Byrnzie, on the previous page of this thread you wrote "As for whether any anti-Semite may use anything I, or anyone else, critical of Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign, for his or her own ends, I really couldn't give a flying fuck."

    Your anti-racist sentiments seem to have some glaring loopholes. Could anyone imagine the same sentiment being expressed with regards to anti-black racism. Could you imagine someone claiming with a straight face to be an anti-racist and then saying "As for whether any member of the KKK may use anything I, or anyone else who is critical of [insert controversial African-American figure] says for his or her own racist ends, I really couldn't give a flying fuck."

    Forgive me, but if you are really an anti-racist then you should give a flying fuck, and the fact that your statements could be embraced and used by racists should be a cause for introspection and a warning that perhaps you've allowed your anger to direct your rhetoric on a legitimate issue into nasty territory best avoided.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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