PAUL WELLER takes a stand against RSD flippers

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

well said

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

While I am not a fan of flipping, I would rather have the record stores raise the prices on these items than have people buy them and then resell them on ebay/Lost Dogs/etc. At least that way the $$ goes to someone whose livelihood is based on selling records, not some opportunist who decided to get in line early to get some stuff to sell on ebay. The store have costs to operate (rent, employees, etc) that these flippers do not have.

I feel the same way about poster artists. Why should Klausen or MunkOne sell a poster for $60-$90 and then watch someone buy it to immediately list it on ebay for 2-3 times that amount. I would rather see the artists raise their prices so that the people who did the work and created the art get the benefit.

I guess, but who's to say that private flippers aren't using the money to support themselves?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that retailers can be regulated. Private individuals cannot. I personally think that record retailers who use RSD that way are despicable and doing a DISSERVICE to their own industry, and in the long run are harming their livelihoods, not aiding it. I have a MUCH more negative view of them than I do individual flippers.

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

While I am not a fan of flipping, I would rather have the record stores raise the prices on these items than have people buy them and then resell them on ebay/Lost Dogs/etc. At least that way the $$ goes to someone whose livelihood is based on selling records, not some opportunist who decided to get in line early to get some stuff to sell on ebay. The store have costs to operate (rent, employees, etc) that these flippers do not have.

I feel the same way about poster artists. Why should Klausen or MunkOne sell a poster for $60-$90 and then watch someone buy it to immediately list it on ebay for 2-3 times that amount. I would rather see the artists raise their prices so that the people who did the work and created the art get the benefit.

I guess, but who's to say that private flippers aren't using the money to support themselves?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that retailers can be regulated. Private individuals cannot. I personally think that record retailers who use RSD that way are despicable and doing a DISSERVICE to their own industry, and in the long run are harming their livelihoods, not aiding it. I have a MUCH more negative view of them than I do individual flippers.

So if you owned a record store and that was how you fed you family, you would have no issue for selling something for $39.99 and then watching the buyer (who did NO REAL WORK) sell it on ebay for $200.

Maybe, but that's the name of the game. It's not like they are LOSING money from this. They just aren't ripping people off in order to line their own pockets. Retailers need to protect their industry. They should be doing what's in their best interests in the long run, not participating in money grabs that damage their industry and do a disservice to their customers. Retailers need to be held to certain standards. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't be in the business.
By your thinking, Ticketmaster is also perfectly justified in scalping their own tickets at 10 times the normal amount, no questions asked, because they covet the scalpers' earnings. Businesses need to respect the industry in which they participate as legitimate retailers.

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

While I am not a fan of flipping, I would rather have the record stores raise the prices on these items than have people buy them and then resell them on ebay/Lost Dogs/etc. At least that way the $$ goes to someone whose livelihood is based on selling records, not some opportunist who decided to get in line early to get some stuff to sell on ebay. The store have costs to operate (rent, employees, etc) that these flippers do not have.

I feel the same way about poster artists. Why should Klausen or MunkOne sell a poster for $60-$90 and then watch someone buy it to immediately list it on ebay for 2-3 times that amount. I would rather see the artists raise their prices so that the people who did the work and created the art get the benefit.

I guess, but who's to say that private flippers aren't using the money to support themselves?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that retailers can be regulated. Private individuals cannot. I personally think that record retailers who use RSD that way are despicable and doing a DISSERVICE to their own industry, and in the long run are harming their livelihoods, not aiding it. I have a MUCH more negative view of them than I do individual flippers.

So if you owned a record store and that was how you fed you family, you would have no issue for selling something for $39.99 and then watching the buyer (who did NO REAL WORK) sell it on ebay for $200.

Maybe, but that's the name of the game. It's not like they are LOSING money from this. They just aren't ripping people off in order to line their own pockets. Retailers need to protect their industry. They should be doing what's in their best interests in the long run, not participating in money grabs that damage their industry and do a disservice to their customers. Retailers need to be held to certain standards. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't be in the business.
By your thinking, Ticketmaster is also perfectly justified in scalping their own tickets at 10 times the normal amount, no questions asked, because they covet the scalpers' earnings. Businesses need to respect the industry in which they participate as legitimate retailers.

I think there is a big difference between a billion dollar company like ticketmaster and a local record store that is struggling to keep the doors open.

Also, retail prices are SUGGESTED. Local shops can sell items for whatever price they choose,

Yeah, there is a difference, but I think the principle is the same. And again, if small business owners do this shit, they are doing a disservice to themselves in the long run. If they flips shit on ebay, less and less people will come into their store, since they don't have anything good available in-store, and their business will eventually fail. All just for a fast buck in the moment. Retailers who do this are very short-sighted.

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

While I am not a fan of flipping, I would rather have the record stores raise the prices on these items than have people buy them and then resell them on ebay/Lost Dogs/etc. At least that way the $$ goes to someone whose livelihood is based on selling records, not some opportunist who decided to get in line early to get some stuff to sell on ebay. The store have costs to operate (rent, employees, etc) that these flippers do not have.

I feel the same way about poster artists. Why should Klausen or MunkOne sell a poster for $60-$90 and then watch someone buy it to immediately list it on ebay for 2-3 times that amount. I would rather see the artists raise their prices so that the people who did the work and created the art get the benefit.

I guess, but who's to say that private flippers aren't using the money to support themselves?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that retailers can be regulated. Private individuals cannot. I personally think that record retailers who use RSD that way are despicable and doing a DISSERVICE to their own industry, and in the long run are harming their livelihoods, not aiding it. I have a MUCH more negative view of them than I do individual flippers.

So if you owned a record store and that was how you fed you family, you would have no issue for selling something for $39.99 and then watching the buyer (who did NO REAL WORK) sell it on ebay for $200.

Maybe, but that's the name of the game. It's not like they are LOSING money from this. They just aren't ripping people off in order to line their own pockets. Retailers need to protect their industry. They should be doing what's in their best interests in the long run, not participating in money grabs that damage their industry and do a disservice to their customers. Retailers need to be held to certain standards. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't be in the business.
By your thinking, Ticketmaster is also perfectly justified in scalping their own tickets at 10 times the normal amount, no questions asked, because they covet the scalpers' earnings. Businesses need to respect the industry in which they participate as legitimate retailers.

I think there is a big difference between a billion dollar company like ticketmaster and a local record store that is struggling to keep the doors open.

Also, retail prices are SUGGESTED. Local shops can sell items for whatever price they choose,

Yeah, there is a difference, but I think the principle is the same. And again, if small business owners do this shit, they are doing a disservice to themselves in the long run. If they flips shit on ebay, less and less people will come into their store, since they don't have anything good available in-store, and their business will eventually fail. All just for a fast buck in the moment. Retailers who do this are very short-sighted.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you and I am not a fan of retailers increasing prices on RSD items and I don't think they should ever take their limited items to ebay.
But if someone is going to capture the excess profit from a rare RSD release, I would rather have it be the retailers and not the flippers.

Really? Fair enough. Not me. I think retailers who do this are way scummier than individuals who do it for the reasons I already outlined. I'd way prefer that random private individuals make profit here, since that doesn't cause record stores to go out of business.

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

While I am not a fan of flipping, I would rather have the record stores raise the prices on these items than have people buy them and then resell them on ebay/Lost Dogs/etc. At least that way the $$ goes to someone whose livelihood is based on selling records, not some opportunist who decided to get in line early to get some stuff to sell on ebay. The store have costs to operate (rent, employees, etc) that these flippers do not have.

I feel the same way about poster artists. Why should Klausen or MunkOne sell a poster for $60-$90 and then watch someone buy it to immediately list it on ebay for 2-3 times that amount. I would rather see the artists raise their prices so that the people who did the work and created the art get the benefit.

I guess, but who's to say that private flippers aren't using the money to support themselves?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that retailers can be regulated. Private individuals cannot. I personally think that record retailers who use RSD that way are despicable and doing a DISSERVICE to their own industry, and in the long run are harming their livelihoods, not aiding it. I have a MUCH more negative view of them than I do individual flippers.

So if you owned a record store and that was how you fed you family, you would have no issue for selling something for $39.99 and then watching the buyer (who did NO REAL WORK) sell it on ebay for $200.

Maybe, but that's the name of the game. It's not like they are LOSING money from this. They just aren't ripping people off in order to line their own pockets. Retailers need to protect their industry. They should be doing what's in their best interests in the long run, not participating in money grabs that damage their industry and do a disservice to their customers. Retailers need to be held to certain standards. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't be in the business.
By your thinking, Ticketmaster is also perfectly justified in scalping their own tickets at 10 times the normal amount, no questions asked, because they covet the scalpers' earnings. Businesses need to respect the industry in which they participate as legitimate retailers.

I think there is a big difference between a billion dollar company like ticketmaster and a local record store that is struggling to keep the doors open.

Also, retail prices are SUGGESTED. Local shops can sell items for whatever price they choose,

Yeah, there is a difference, but I think the principle is the same. And again, if small business owners do this shit, they are doing a disservice to themselves in the long run. If they flips shit on ebay, less and less people will come into their store, since they don't have anything good available in-store, and their business will eventually fail. All just for a fast buck in the moment. Retailers who do this are very short-sighted.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you and I am not a fan of retailers increasing prices on RSD items and I don't think they should ever take their limited items to ebay.
But if someone is going to capture the excess profit from a rare RSD release, I would rather have it be the retailers and not the flippers.

Really? Fair enough. Not me. I think retailers who do this are way scummier than individuals who do it for the reasons I already outlined. I'd way prefer that random private individuals make profit here, since that doesn't cause record stores to go out of business.

So it wouldn't piss you off if you were the third person in line on RSD and the two people in front of you bought all of the limited items to sell on ebay for 2 or 3 times the price?
I have seen people list RSD items on ebay outside the record shop using their phones 5 minutes after the bought the vinyl.

Sure, but it would piss me off a LOT more if the owner of the store I was lining up in front of and offering my business to did it before the store even opened!

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJ-Cubs said:

PJ_Soul said:

boyo79 said:

given2fly23 said:

jm257212 said:

Imo. The only way to stop it is for consumers to not by it..to be patient. Do u really need in immediately?

That's a big part of it. The poster/vinyl craze has gotten out of hand, adults behaving like children at christmas. It reminds me of how resellers ruined baseball cards when I was young.

Yep. And we see it happen alot just here on this website!!! Record companies can either stop the limited runs or people should just avoid paying over the odds on the secondary market. But we know this won't happen.

No, it won't happen.

But for me it's not limited edition in general that's the issue here (I LIKE limited edition stuff, and while it sucks, I see no reason why individuals shouldn't be able to flip all the live long day if they want). It's record store owners flipping that's the problem here, not individuals on the secondary market flipping. Something should be done about those store owners who participate in RSD but flip the LE items they get. I.e. regulation by the producers of the records, just like they do in the book business, where they print the price of the book right on the item itself. Isn't there a way to also restrict retailers from selling for more than a set price? I believe so.

But also, the extremely small numbers of LE stuff for RSD in particular seem pretty dumb. 100 or 500 copies of certain things for RSD in particular is definitely a part of the problem. The whole point of RSD (as opposed to LE sales on fan sites) is to invigorate record stores for the sake of consumers. Offering only 100 or 500 for RSD works against the whole point of the day because of the temptation it presents to store owners.

In any case, there is definitely something that COULD be done with RSD flipping, but no one seems to care enough to put in the effort (since simply not participating as a form of protest is no effort at all).

While I am not a fan of flipping, I would rather have the record stores raise the prices on these items than have people buy them and then resell them on ebay/Lost Dogs/etc. At least that way the $$ goes to someone whose livelihood is based on selling records, not some opportunist who decided to get in line early to get some stuff to sell on ebay. The store have costs to operate (rent, employees, etc) that these flippers do not have.

I feel the same way about poster artists. Why should Klausen or MunkOne sell a poster for $60-$90 and then watch someone buy it to immediately list it on ebay for 2-3 times that amount. I would rather see the artists raise their prices so that the people who did the work and created the art get the benefit.

I guess, but who's to say that private flippers aren't using the money to support themselves?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that retailers can be regulated. Private individuals cannot. I personally think that record retailers who use RSD that way are despicable and doing a DISSERVICE to their own industry, and in the long run are harming their livelihoods, not aiding it. I have a MUCH more negative view of them than I do individual flippers.

So if you owned a record store and that was how you fed you family, you would have no issue for selling something for $39.99 and then watching the buyer (who did NO REAL WORK) sell it on ebay for $200.

Maybe, but that's the name of the game. It's not like they are LOSING money from this. They just aren't ripping people off in order to line their own pockets. Retailers need to protect their industry. They should be doing what's in their best interests in the long run, not participating in money grabs that damage their industry and do a disservice to their customers. Retailers need to be held to certain standards. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't be in the business.
By your thinking, Ticketmaster is also perfectly justified in scalping their own tickets at 10 times the normal amount, no questions asked, because they covet the scalpers' earnings. Businesses need to respect the industry in which they participate as legitimate retailers.

I think there is a big difference between a billion dollar company like ticketmaster and a local record store that is struggling to keep the doors open.

Also, retail prices are SUGGESTED. Local shops can sell items for whatever price they choose,

Yeah, there is a difference, but I think the principle is the same. And again, if small business owners do this shit, they are doing a disservice to themselves in the long run. If they flips shit on ebay, less and less people will come into their store, since they don't have anything good available in-store, and their business will eventually fail. All just for a fast buck in the moment. Retailers who do this are very short-sighted.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you and I am not a fan of retailers increasing prices on RSD items and I don't think they should ever take their limited items to ebay.
But if someone is going to capture the excess profit from a rare RSD release, I would rather have it be the retailers and not the flippers.

Really? Fair enough. Not me. I think retailers who do this are way scummier than individuals who do it for the reasons I already outlined. I'd way prefer that random private individuals make profit here, since that doesn't cause record stores to go out of business.

So it wouldn't piss you off if you were the third person in line on RSD and the two people in front of you bought all of the limited items to sell on ebay for 2 or 3 times the price?
I have seen people list RSD items on ebay outside the record shop using their phones 5 minutes after the bought the vinyl.

Sure, but it would piss me off a LOT more if the owner of the store I was lining up in front of and offering my business to did it before the store even opened!

Again, I am NOT supporting record store owners who list items on ebay before/during/after RSD. I just think they should be thinking about increasing their prices IN STORE a bit to capture some of the profit that flippers are taking.

I think we may need agree to disagree. We are getting close to the record for most quotes within quotes on a thread.

Lol. I totally understand that you're not supporting owners doing that. But yeah, we do have to just agree that we disagree about who is the bigger scumbag.

I really love that we're not limited to 3 quotes within a post now though!!