For those who got screwed by the cops in Camden

karmakvisser · July 2008

I'm reaching out to the fans that were royally screwed by the cops and the justice system of Camden.

Quick recap, at the Pearl Jam Camden concerts this past June, the cops were preying upon uninformed concert goers by seemingly ignoring any drinking in the parking lots but ticketing those with open containers in any public spaces. Now ignorance of the law is not an excuse so if those who were targeted were given the opportunity to pay off the fine and get it over with, end of story.

However, the government of Camden chose a different route. Here is the email a friend of mine sent after being screwed by the court system:

"Well my court date was a complete nightmare. Turns out there were about 1000 other people there that were also at the Pearl Jam show. I would say 99% of the people in court. When we got there they called out our names individually and we had to go up to the prosecuter who told us our fine. Meanest woman I've ever been in contact with. Not rude to me, but out of hand with other people simply trying to ask her a question. Threatening to hold them in contempt of court for asking questions.

When I got up to her desk, she said the charge of "Drinking in Public" which had a fine of $78 had been amended and now the offense was "inapropriate behavior" which held a minimum fine of $500 up to $1000 with 60 days jail time. She said the court was recommending the $500 fine. If I were to plead "not guilty" they would set a trial date at a later time in which they would try and prosecute for the higher penalty. So... of course everyone at the courthouse pleads guilty and all people in attendance are to pay $500 + $33 in court costs.

I'm not sure how they were allowed to change the charge after the ticket had already been written. It went from $78 - $500 without anyone knowing until the day of court. A lot of us compared tickets and everyone I talked to had "drinking in public" written on their ticket as the penalty.

Whats kinda funny is the people who were under 21 (some looking 14 or 15) were charged with the same fine. I am 31 years old and I was having a beer. Now I'm out $533. Wow... Needless to say I was shocked. A lot of girls that were there were sobbing. What a day. Pretty scary how the law can pretty much do whatever they want. I guess they could have fined everyone $10,000 if they chose to. It is either pay your fine or go to jail. So people will pay any amount.

That was the 8:30AM court time.... They also have a 12:30PM court time which was probably filled up as well."

With all that said, Pearl Jam fans were utterly ripped off and lied to and forced into an unfair situation. I contacted about 20 media outlets in the Philadelphia area with one anemic response from a disc jockey at WYSP. I also posted about this travesty of justice on another forum and was put in touch with an active NJ lawyer who has an interest in this type of civic disparity.

I need someone who was ticketed to email me at karmakvisser@yahoo.com. I want to put you in touch with this lawyer. No cost for the conversation. Merely exploring the exact nature of the charges and to see if there is a possibility of a lawsuit. My main goal is to stop this totally horrendous practice and to warn any future concert goers of the scam. Don't let anyone else fall victim to these assholes!

Eddie is always talking about people being accountable for their actions and furthermore, holding the government accountable for its actions! Stand up for your rights and show the assholes in the Camden judicial system that they can't stampede a bunch of younger folks into paying for a corrupt government!

Happy Monday!

ken

bgirl59 · July 2008

..."Eddie is always talking about people being accountable for their actions and furthermore, holding the government accountable for its actions! Stand up for your rights and show the assholes in the Camden judicial system that they can't stampede a bunch of younger folks into paying for a corrupt government!"
DO IT!! Corrupt indeed! Do not let them get away with this!
xo

ballgame · July 2008

wow. I was at a Camden show. This is nuts

meme · July 2008

I know it was a difficult situation, but no way I would have pleaded guilty.

Wow... I hope someone straightens this up.

chromiam · July 2008

meme wrote:

I know it was a difficult situation, but no way I would have pleaded guilty.

Wow... I hope someone straightens this up.

Exactly, we all have rights and one of them is to fight the charges (or increased charges/penalties), this person (and I'm sure others) chose not to.... that was their right and choice.

Travelar · July 2008

I don't know where around the lot that this happened, but I was in line and I heard cops tell people numerous times to either turn around or dump their beers in the trash can. I didn't see them write one ticket in the 2 hours that I was outside the parking lot zone.

EDIT: I do agree that the way they chose to handle things with the folks that they wrote up was complete BS.

Get_Right · July 2008

all I can say is dont do the crime if you cant pay the fine

really

and law enforcement is about generating profits these days-no surprise there

flame away

karmakvisser · July 2008

TrAvELAr wrote:

I don't know where around the lot that this happened, but I was in line and I heard cops tell people numerous times to either turn around or dump their beers in the trash can. I didn't see them write one ticket in the 2 hours that I was outside the parking lot zone.

EDIT: I do agree that the way they chose to handle things with the folks that they wrote up was complete BS.

Not all cops are buttheads. We were in the parking lot between the Tweeter center and the bridge. There was a 3 block walk up to the entrance to the center. The 2 lady cops were parked in the middle of the walk, ticketing all those with open containers.

As far as fighting the charge, the prosecutor did an excellent job of intimidating everyone in the room. Plus they formed smaller groups to control them. With the intimidation factor plus the pain in the ass of having to take time off from work just to drive to that shithole called Camden, plus the threat of larger fines and jail time if you pleaded not guilty drove 99% of the people to cave.

In talking with the lawyer, there needs to be evidentiary info in the police report in order to up the charges to Inappropriate Behavior. It is highly suspicious that they amended the charges up in this manner. There is a valid case here. The problem is that people plead guilty. The plea can be changed but that takes some doing plus there is a 45 day period.

I need someone who was ticketed to email me. Let's at least help those in the future so other concert goers don't get scammed.

karmakvisser@yahoo.com

As a disclaimer, I in no way am profiting from this. My only interest is to prevent this from happening to anyone else. I'm so lucky that my wife threw her bottle away (in a trash can) not 100 feet before the cop car. I live in Washington DC and it would have totally sucked to have to drive up to Camden only to be hosed!

ken

karmakvisser · July 2008

Get_Right wrote:

all I can say is dont do the crime if you cant pay the fine

really

and law enforcement is about generating profits these days-no surprise there

flame away

That's a bullshit response. My friend would have had no problem paying the $78 fine plus court cost. He was more then willing to pay for his "crime" As I said in my initial start of this thread, ignorance is no excuse. However, the prosecutor change the charges without evidence or notice to quintuple the fine. This was a revenue grab from people that will never want to visit their fair city ever again. Plus, its not like these are rich people who can afford $533 for something they didn't do. This is not a Communist country, as far as I know. My friend just had his first child. $533 takes food and clothes away from his wife and child. I can only imagine was trouble it caused others. I have 3 kids. This deal would have cost me close to a grand in travel, time off and bullshit fines/court costs.

Get a life

ken

Cree Nations · July 2008

THIS is a fucking joke. No way should the police be allowed to change the nature of a ticket...once given. NO WAY! Especially for something so minor
Good luck and I hope this shit gets sorted out.

chromiam · July 2008

sorry but had to respond to a few points...

karmakvisser wrote:

Not all cops are buttheads. We were in the parking lot between the Tweeter center and the bridge. There was a 3 block walk up to the entrance to the center. The 2 lady cops were parked in the middle of the walk, ticketing all those with open containers.

So those 2 women officers were DOING their job and citing people for public consumption. Don't see the problem or complaint there.

karmakvisser wrote:

As far as fighting the charge, the prosecutor did an excellent job of intimidating everyone in the room. Plus they formed smaller groups to control them. With the intimidation factor plus the pain in the ass of having to take time off from work just to drive to that shithole called Camden, plus the threat of larger fines and jail time if you pleaded not guilty drove 99% of the people to cave.

Intimidation??? What intimidation??? You go up and plead not guilty.... simple as that. The smaller groups make no difference because you are not being charged as a group but as an individual. And as an individual you have to do what is right for you not matter what the group does. And no matter what charge you fight in court, there is the possibility of higher fines, court costs, etc., so don't see how that is a threat. If you are innocent of the revised charge then you fight it... pretty simple to me.

ballgame · July 2008

another reason to not play Camden. ITS CAMDEN!

restlesssoul · July 2008

there was a massive thread on this somewhere, maybe in GTF, but i wish you best of luck, it is truly an outrage that this happened and something needed to be done. Good luck with everything. sorry this happened.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=293771&highlight=cops
msg some of these people. they would be willing

Get_Right · July 2008

karmakvisser wrote:

That's a bullshit response. My friend would have had no problem paying the $78 fine plus court cost. He was more then willing to pay for his "crime" As I said in my initial start of this thread, ignorance is no excuse. However, the prosecutor change the charges without evidence or notice to quintuple the fine. This was a revenue grab from people that will never want to visit their fair city ever again. Plus, its not like these are rich people who can afford $533 for something they didn't do. This is not a Communist country, as far as I know. My friend just had his first child. $533 takes food and clothes away from his wife and child. I can only imagine was trouble it caused others. I have 3 kids. This deal would have cost me close to a grand in travel, time off and bullshit fines/court costs.

Get a life

ken

I have a life, trust me on that
welcome to the justice system-thats how its done these days-they know the precise amount that will hurt you but not cause you to hire an attorney

mission accomplished-your friend wont drink on the street in camden again

they tolerate the lot drinking-so its contained
rich or poor, the camden police are famous for this stuff.

no surprise really.

You take your chances drinking in a lot on the street, wherever its not licensed. And you take your chances that the local police or prosecutor will screw you. Its easy pickins when the rock show comes to town. Too easy.

Sorry that happened but its price you pay when you drink in public. This is not 1980.

meme · July 2008

karmakvisser wrote:

That's a bullshit response. My friend would have had no problem paying the $78 fine plus court cost. He was more then willing to pay for his "crime" As I said in my initial start of this thread, ignorance is no excuse. However, the prosecutor change the charges without evidence or notice to quintuple the fine. This was a revenue grab from people that will never want to visit their fair city ever again. Plus, its not like these are rich people who can afford $533 for something they didn't do. This is not a Communist country, as far as I know. My friend just had his first child. $533 takes food and clothes away from his wife and child. I can only imagine was trouble it caused others. I have 3 kids. This deal would have cost me close to a grand in travel, time off and bullshit fines/court costs.

Get a life

ken

I think he does have a life, he is a... lawyer

I wish you the best of luck in pursuing this. All I am saying is that if people still had their tickets in hand, that was a pretty good insurance against any modification of the charges. Once they pleaded guilty (for whatever reason, however despicable), they made their case much more difficult.

Get_Right · July 2008

meme wrote:

I think he does have a life, he is a... lawyer

I wish you the best of luck in pursuing this. All I am saying is that if people still had their tickets in hand, that was a pretty good insurance against any modification of the charges. Once they pleaded guilty (for whatever reason, however despicable), they made their case much more difficult.

thanks for that

mookieblalock · July 2008

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said here.

1. Ammending the charges the day of your appearance is total BS! Pathetic and an obvious attempt to intimidate and profit from out of towners.

2. I hate to say this, because I am totally empathetic and truly feel for the people; but I can't comprehend why anyone would plead guilty to ammended charges. This is not legal and there is no way if you got an attorney this would hold up.

3. Regardless of the offense or the plea--the actions of the court are despicable and need to be brought to light and stopped. Yes, the people made a mistake by doing something that is illegal (although rarely enforced this strictly), but that does not mean they deserve to be treated like this. And that is the bottom line...there is a bigger picture.

And for those of you who say they deserved this...remember next time it could be your brother, son or daughter in this same situation. Let's try to get off the high horse a bit...

TransplantedNewf · July 2008

Okay, i don't get it. Isn't drinking in public illegal in the US?

I don't mean to sound like a bitch but don't do it and then whine about the fines...

i just realized they changed the fines which is shitty...but probably legal..but then again, had you not been drinking in public, none of this would've happened.

chromiam · July 2008

TransplantedNewf wrote:

Okay, i don't get it. Isn't drinking in public illegal in the US?

I don't mean to sound like a bitch but don't do it and then whine about the fines...

i just realized they changed the fines which is shitty...but probably legal..but then again, had you not been drinking in public, none of this would've happened.

Correct on all counts.....

mjb · July 2008

Just reading all of this - it is illegal and people seem to have been prepared to face the consequences and pay their fines...amping up the charge with everyone in court with their wallets out seems like a pretty unfair racket to me. If the intent is to deter people from doing this, then the set fine on the spot should be $500 (or whatever the new fine ended up being)...the sad thing is that those who fight it (and prob end up spending just us much in legal fees) will probably all get off or have the charges reduced.

Tuolumne Mama · July 2008

Seems odd they can change the rules after the fact. I'm not sure if it would help, but a call to the ACLU couldn't hurt. If they cannot help at least they may be able to give some guidance on how to handle this. Plus judges and DA's are elected officials in most states and never care for discriminatory allegations. Plus I'm sure the town of Camden enjoys a boost in the economy when PJ comes to town and would hate to lose that. Good luck.

For those who got screwed by the cops in Camden

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