For those who got screwed by the cops in Camden
karmakvisser
Posts: 33
I'm reaching out to the fans that were royally screwed by the cops and the justice system of Camden.
Quick recap, at the Pearl Jam Camden concerts this past June, the cops were preying upon uninformed concert goers by seemingly ignoring any drinking in the parking lots but ticketing those with open containers in any public spaces. Now ignorance of the law is not an excuse so if those who were targeted were given the opportunity to pay off the fine and get it over with, end of story.
However, the government of Camden chose a different route. Here is the email a friend of mine sent after being screwed by the court system:
"Well my court date was a complete nightmare. Turns out there were about 1000 other people there that were also at the Pearl Jam show. I would say 99% of the people in court. When we got there they called out our names individually and we had to go up to the prosecuter who told us our fine. Meanest woman I've ever been in contact with. Not rude to me, but out of hand with other people simply trying to ask her a question. Threatening to hold them in contempt of court for asking questions.
When I got up to her desk, she said the charge of "Drinking in Public" which had a fine of $78 had been amended and now the offense was "inapropriate behavior" which held a minimum fine of $500 up to $1000 with 60 days jail time. She said the court was recommending the $500 fine. If I were to plead "not guilty" they would set a trial date at a later time in which they would try and prosecute for the higher penalty. So... of course everyone at the courthouse pleads guilty and all people in attendance are to pay $500 + $33 in court costs.
I'm not sure how they were allowed to change the charge after the ticket had already been written. It went from $78 - $500 without anyone knowing until the day of court. A lot of us compared tickets and everyone I talked to had "drinking in public" written on their ticket as the penalty.
Whats kinda funny is the people who were under 21 (some looking 14 or 15) were charged with the same fine. I am 31 years old and I was having a beer. Now I'm out $533. Wow... Needless to say I was shocked. A lot of girls that were there were sobbing. What a day. Pretty scary how the law can pretty much do whatever they want. I guess they could have fined everyone $10,000 if they chose to. It is either pay your fine or go to jail. So people will pay any amount.
That was the 8:30AM court time.... They also have a 12:30PM court time which was probably filled up as well."
With all that said, Pearl Jam fans were utterly ripped off and lied to and forced into an unfair situation. I contacted about 20 media outlets in the Philadelphia area with one anemic response from a disc jockey at WYSP. I also posted about this travesty of justice on another forum and was put in touch with an active NJ lawyer who has an interest in this type of civic disparity.
I need someone who was ticketed to email me at karmakvisser@yahoo.com. I want to put you in touch with this lawyer. No cost for the conversation. Merely exploring the exact nature of the charges and to see if there is a possibility of a lawsuit. My main goal is to stop this totally horrendous practice and to warn any future concert goers of the scam. Don't let anyone else fall victim to these assholes!
Eddie is always talking about people being accountable for their actions and furthermore, holding the government accountable for its actions! Stand up for your rights and show the assholes in the Camden judicial system that they can't stampede a bunch of younger folks into paying for a corrupt government!
Happy Monday!
ken
Quick recap, at the Pearl Jam Camden concerts this past June, the cops were preying upon uninformed concert goers by seemingly ignoring any drinking in the parking lots but ticketing those with open containers in any public spaces. Now ignorance of the law is not an excuse so if those who were targeted were given the opportunity to pay off the fine and get it over with, end of story.
However, the government of Camden chose a different route. Here is the email a friend of mine sent after being screwed by the court system:
"Well my court date was a complete nightmare. Turns out there were about 1000 other people there that were also at the Pearl Jam show. I would say 99% of the people in court. When we got there they called out our names individually and we had to go up to the prosecuter who told us our fine. Meanest woman I've ever been in contact with. Not rude to me, but out of hand with other people simply trying to ask her a question. Threatening to hold them in contempt of court for asking questions.
When I got up to her desk, she said the charge of "Drinking in Public" which had a fine of $78 had been amended and now the offense was "inapropriate behavior" which held a minimum fine of $500 up to $1000 with 60 days jail time. She said the court was recommending the $500 fine. If I were to plead "not guilty" they would set a trial date at a later time in which they would try and prosecute for the higher penalty. So... of course everyone at the courthouse pleads guilty and all people in attendance are to pay $500 + $33 in court costs.
I'm not sure how they were allowed to change the charge after the ticket had already been written. It went from $78 - $500 without anyone knowing until the day of court. A lot of us compared tickets and everyone I talked to had "drinking in public" written on their ticket as the penalty.
Whats kinda funny is the people who were under 21 (some looking 14 or 15) were charged with the same fine. I am 31 years old and I was having a beer. Now I'm out $533. Wow... Needless to say I was shocked. A lot of girls that were there were sobbing. What a day. Pretty scary how the law can pretty much do whatever they want. I guess they could have fined everyone $10,000 if they chose to. It is either pay your fine or go to jail. So people will pay any amount.
That was the 8:30AM court time.... They also have a 12:30PM court time which was probably filled up as well."
With all that said, Pearl Jam fans were utterly ripped off and lied to and forced into an unfair situation. I contacted about 20 media outlets in the Philadelphia area with one anemic response from a disc jockey at WYSP. I also posted about this travesty of justice on another forum and was put in touch with an active NJ lawyer who has an interest in this type of civic disparity.
I need someone who was ticketed to email me at karmakvisser@yahoo.com. I want to put you in touch with this lawyer. No cost for the conversation. Merely exploring the exact nature of the charges and to see if there is a possibility of a lawsuit. My main goal is to stop this totally horrendous practice and to warn any future concert goers of the scam. Don't let anyone else fall victim to these assholes!
Eddie is always talking about people being accountable for their actions and furthermore, holding the government accountable for its actions! Stand up for your rights and show the assholes in the Camden judicial system that they can't stampede a bunch of younger folks into paying for a corrupt government!
Happy Monday!
ken
Long time listener, first time caller
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
DO IT!! Corrupt indeed! Do not let them get away with this!
xo
Peace Love & Pearl Jam forever!!
Wow... I hope someone straightens this up.
Exactly, we all have rights and one of them is to fight the charges (or increased charges/penalties), this person (and I'm sure others) chose not to.... that was their right and choice.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
EDIT: I do agree that the way they chose to handle things with the folks that they wrote up was complete BS.
really
and law enforcement is about generating profits these days-no surprise there
flame away
Not all cops are buttheads. We were in the parking lot between the Tweeter center and the bridge. There was a 3 block walk up to the entrance to the center. The 2 lady cops were parked in the middle of the walk, ticketing all those with open containers.
As far as fighting the charge, the prosecutor did an excellent job of intimidating everyone in the room. Plus they formed smaller groups to control them. With the intimidation factor plus the pain in the ass of having to take time off from work just to drive to that shithole called Camden, plus the threat of larger fines and jail time if you pleaded not guilty drove 99% of the people to cave.
In talking with the lawyer, there needs to be evidentiary info in the police report in order to up the charges to Inappropriate Behavior. It is highly suspicious that they amended the charges up in this manner. There is a valid case here. The problem is that people plead guilty. The plea can be changed but that takes some doing plus there is a 45 day period.
I need someone who was ticketed to email me. Let's at least help those in the future so other concert goers don't get scammed.
karmakvisser@yahoo.com
As a disclaimer, I in no way am profiting from this. My only interest is to prevent this from happening to anyone else. I'm so lucky that my wife threw her bottle away (in a trash can) not 100 feet before the cop car. I live in Washington DC and it would have totally sucked to have to drive up to Camden only to be hosed!
ken
That's a bullshit response. My friend would have had no problem paying the $78 fine plus court cost. He was more then willing to pay for his "crime" As I said in my initial start of this thread, ignorance is no excuse. However, the prosecutor change the charges without evidence or notice to quintuple the fine. This was a revenue grab from people that will never want to visit their fair city ever again. Plus, its not like these are rich people who can afford $533 for something they didn't do. This is not a Communist country, as far as I know. My friend just had his first child. $533 takes food and clothes away from his wife and child. I can only imagine was trouble it caused others. I have 3 kids. This deal would have cost me close to a grand in travel, time off and bullshit fines/court costs.
Get a life
ken
Good luck and I hope this shit gets sorted out.
>
...a lover and a fighter.
"I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa
http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians
Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
So those 2 women officers were DOING their job and citing people for public consumption. Don't see the problem or complaint there.
Intimidation??? What intimidation??? You go up and plead not guilty.... simple as that. The smaller groups make no difference because you are not being charged as a group but as an individual. And as an individual you have to do what is right for you not matter what the group does. And no matter what charge you fight in court, there is the possibility of higher fines, court costs, etc., so don't see how that is a threat. If you are innocent of the revised charge then you fight it... pretty simple to me.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=293771&highlight=cops
msg some of these people. they would be willing
welcome to the justice system-thats how its done these days-they know the precise amount that will hurt you but not cause you to hire an attorney
mission accomplished-your friend wont drink on the street in camden again
they tolerate the lot drinking-so its contained
rich or poor, the camden police are famous for this stuff.
no surprise really.
You take your chances drinking in a lot on the street, wherever its not licensed. And you take your chances that the local police or prosecutor will screw you. Its easy pickins when the rock show comes to town. Too easy.
Sorry that happened but its price you pay when you drink in public. This is not 1980.
I think he does have a life, he is a... lawyer
I wish you the best of luck in pursuing this. All I am saying is that if people still had their tickets in hand, that was a pretty good insurance against any modification of the charges. Once they pleaded guilty (for whatever reason, however despicable), they made their case much more difficult.
thanks for that
1. Ammending the charges the day of your appearance is total BS! Pathetic and an obvious attempt to intimidate and profit from out of towners.
2. I hate to say this, because I am totally empathetic and truly feel for the people; but I can't comprehend why anyone would plead guilty to ammended charges. This is not legal and there is no way if you got an attorney this would hold up.
3. Regardless of the offense or the plea--the actions of the court are despicable and need to be brought to light and stopped. Yes, the people made a mistake by doing something that is illegal (although rarely enforced this strictly), but that does not mean they deserve to be treated like this. And that is the bottom line...there is a bigger picture.
And for those of you who say they deserved this...remember next time it could be your brother, son or daughter in this same situation. Let's try to get off the high horse a bit...
I don't mean to sound like a bitch but don't do it and then whine about the fines...
i just realized they changed the fines which is shitty...but probably legal..but then again, had you not been drinking in public, none of this would've happened.
"To is a preposition.
Come is a verb"
Correct on all counts.....
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
"What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." Albert Pine.
I wish they would crack down on all the drunks driving home from the venue.
Again, questioning the original action is a moot point. We have agreed that it is indeed, against the law. The problem here is the degree to which the law is pursued. Coming in to park after paying 20 bucks a car, it seems that you are all in one facility. In reality, the parking lots were not part of the Tweeter Center. In the parking lots there was significant drinking going on. From the 1000's doing so, I don't recall seeing anyone out of hand. What I saw was many people socializing and having fun. My friend who received the ticket even went up to a cop in the parking lot and asked him about carrying the beer around. The cop asked how old he was. "31" Then you are fine. Based on that information, he didn't think twice about walking on the cordoned off streets to the Tweeter center.
So in essence, drinking was condoned within the confines of the parking lots. We were 3 city blocks from the Tweeter center. Evidently, between the parking lots and the Tweeter center, you were on public streets. Even thought they were blocked off to traffic, still a public street.
So in one area beer ok, then 5 feet away, beer illegal. In here I'm safe, over here, I am illegal. So on a technicality, the police were correct. And again, if they had stuck to the original ticket, no problem. Pay the fine and I'm on with my life. But then came the Camden 2 step and bam, you're out $533 bucks. And its easy to sit at your computer and state that there is no way I would plead guilty. They were intimidating people via the process to just get it over with. And like someone mentioned, finding that sweet spot between do I fight it or do I make it go away.
And for the record, I'm totally with you on the drunk driving bit as well. Not a good decision to make. I'm also highly disappointed at the amount of litter left behind. It was embarrassing. But I also put some onus on the parking lot owners. If you are charging $20 bucks a car to park, realizing that people are coming to enjoy themselves, you need to make trash facilities more available.
And once again, the true intent of this thread was to try and prevent this from happening in the future via educating people on the situation. We need to prevent Camden from scamming future concert goers. One thing i know for certain is that the money gained from this exercise was not being spent wisely on the poor folk that have to live in that crap hole of a town. It will be given to the highest campaign contributors who happen to be service providers of some ilk putting in non-bid contract to pick up the trash at the Tweeter center or some BS like that. The money most assuredly won't go to job fair training or good public works programs offering services to those that desperately need it.
ken
Did you happen to get the cops badge number?
And I really dont think more trash cans would help with the garbage. Ive been to every Camden show and the parking lots all look the same, SHIT. I think the majority of PJ fans a lazy slobs. I know thats going to piss a lot of people off but fuck it, truth hurts. Why cant you pick up after yourself? Big a bag a throw it away its that easy. Thats why I smoke weed less clean up.
For example: In many states (I believe NY being one if I remember correctly), it is still illegal for a married couple to engage in oral sex.
Has anyone ever been arrested for this? There are countless laws like this that have never been taken off the books that are technically still the law. People do them anyway, with little expectation of that something is enforced.
Nobody in this forum is perfect, including myself. Some of you act happy about what happened.
Did these people have poor judgement? Perhaps; but I think focusing on the act versus the shady behavior of the court (which was the main point of the OP) is ridiculous and arrogant.
Nor is this New Orleans...the ONLY city where its legal to drink from an open container
Apparently you've never been to Las Vegas?
First,
No technicality... it is ILLEGAL to have an open container of alcohol on a public street. Plain and simple, so stop trying to brush it off like they changed the rules after thousands of people showed up.
It's easy for people to say they wouldn't plead guilty because its true. Why would you just blindly plead guilty to a charge that is false??? You have rights and have the right to exercise them. If you CHOOSE not to, then that is your right as well. Please stop trying to make this a big conspiracy where everyone was duped with no recourse whatsoever.
Do you know where this money goes???
I didn't think so.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
Again, you have managed to totally miss the point. Thank you so much for the rudimentary spelling out of what has already been said. And thank you so much for your enlightening response concerning alcohol consumption. I don't even want to regurgitate that subject. What is the conspiracy is that the assholes in the Camden judiciary system managed to find that sweet spot of how much will someone pay to never have to come back to this shithole ever again.
As far as where the money goes, Camden is a notorious corrupt shithole where I believe the past two mayors have ended up in jail. If you go 2 blocks from the tweeter center, you see the lovely poverty stricken neighborhoods from which a successful exit is by no means coming with any assistance from the government. Not that it is the government's responsibility to pull everyone out of the spiral of poverty. But at least give the appearance that you want to help those less fortunate out. But this is all once again, off the point.
As I have stated before, my goal is to warn as many people as possible about protecting yourself from this abuse of power. I am rather stunned by the amount of "you should have known better". How many times do I have to state that my friend was more than willing to take responsibility for his actions? It was the government that decided to trump up the charges. And yes, he could have said no, not guilty. That was his decision. As it was 99% of the people who plead guilty. However, I have a lawyer that is interested in fighting this abuse of power. I just need someone to standup and at least talk about the facts of what happened.
warmest regards
ken
You've warned whoever visits this board... good for you. But if you have noticed the lack of people standing up to talk with your lawyer, maybe you should consider that one of two things could be ocurring. 1- Not as many people who go to PJ shows use this board as you think or 2- Not all PJ fans blindly follow along when changes are made by government organizations which affect them and their daily lives. They use the rights given to them to defend themselves.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
That the city of Camden has suffered fully from the effects of corruption is a very easy case to make. Do I personally have video of the money exchanging hands? Of course not. But from doing just a smattering of research it is easy to see the course of Camden politics. By driving just 1 block off the main grid, you see the poverty that is a direct result of funds being syphoned off for illicit purposes.
Do you have proof that Camden is not corrupt?
As far as PJ fans standing up for their rights, my friend saw 99.9% of those around him cave, just like he did. What happened in Camden was wrong. It pisses me off as a citizen of this country.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E7D61138F933A25754C0A9679C8B63
A corruption scandal in the Camden Parking Authority erupted in violence today when the former executive director of the authority, facing criminal corruption charges, died, apparently in a suicide, after shooting and severely injuring a former employee and accuser.
The former director, Anthony Scarduzio, was found dead with a single shot in the head at a friend's house in Monroe Township about 10 a.m., the police said.
Moments later, police officers responded to a call for help from a Washington Township frozen custard stand owned by Joseph Bowen, a former employee of the Parking Authority who had been a whistle-blower. Mr. Bowen had been shot several times and beaten on the head with a baseball bat.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E2DF103CF936A15750C0A9679C8B63
There's more. The mayor of Camden is convicted of being the mob's City Hall liaison, while the police chief of West New York, N.J., admits that after taking an oath to protect and serve, he protected and served prostitution and gambling rings.
http://corruptcamdencouncil.blogspot.com/
http://www.northjersey.com/news/njpolitics/25954474.html
The flamboyant Sharpe James, former mayor of Newark, has just been convicted of felonies. So was Martin Barnes, a former mayor of Paterson, and so were three of the last six mayors of Camden.
http://www.politickernj.com/tags/camden?page=2
In the wake of a recent series of scandals involving elected officials that have been shocked the public and sparked calls immediate action to clean up political corruption in New Jersey, DeCroce sent a letter to Assembly Speaker Joseph J. Roberts, D-Camden, yesterday urging him to bring the Assembly back to deal with the issue, which he said has reached crisis proportions.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9805E5D81638F931A15751C1A9669C8B63
Camden's Mayor Is Guilty of 14 Corruption Counts
Milton Milan, the mayor of this stricken city, was convicted today of 14 of the 19 corruption charges against him, including accepting bribes from organized crime figures, money laundering and insurance fraud.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06EFDD133CF932A05750C0A9669C8B63
The ills of this desperate city deepened today with the indictment of its mayor, Milton Milan, on 19 charges of corruption, ranging from laundering drug money and taking bribes from organized crime leaders to stealing his own computer, collecting the insurance and then selling it to a naive office volunteer for three times its worth.
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/dec/22/news/mn-3402
amden Mayor Milton Milan was convicted of taking mob payoffs, laundering drug money and stealing campaign funds, becoming the third of the last five mayors of New Jersey’s poorest city to be found guilty of corruption. Milan, 38, was convicted of 14 of the 19 charges against him. He faces nine to 11 years in prison at sentencing April 5. Federal prosecutors relied on testimony from Ralph Natale, the former boss of the Philadelphia-South Jersey mob and one of the highest-ranking American Mafia figures ever to turn government witness.