I just read this thread and I'm shocked by a lot of these reactions.
There a few things that should be obvious but don't appear to based on a lot of the response. So let's get the following out of the way first:
1. The guy WAS drinking a beer in a public place and was admitted guilty of what he was ticketed for.
2. The police were there for crowd control. They have some selection in how they carry this out and how they ticket, just in the way that a police office on the side of the road with a radar gun isn't going to stop every car or the first car he finds driving over 55 MPH.
3. This put a massive strain on the Camden legal system. We can assume that the vast majority of the people there were guilty based on the fact that is incredibly unlikely that the police would ticket those not drinking while they let so many that were drinking off. People largely showed up because they were pissed that others didn't get ticketed and they did, and because they were hoping that they could get out the fine. Many were counting on putting this strain on the system and thinking they needed to bring in the police office or they would instantly have the changes dropped. The majority of the people there should have just paid their fine in the first place. When their system was flood with people who were now become a nuisance for a 2nd time, they reacted quite poorly.
With all of that said, the key issue here is one of rights and we shouldn't forget that. By using a continually escalating penalty, Camden is saying, in essense, is that an individual does not have the ability to be heard and challenge your accuser, which is the cornerstone of our legal system. This situation is unjust and reeks of tyranny. I hope those that were bullied into paying $500 do find recourse, but it is unlikely.
$78 was a completely reasonable fine. It's not even a situation like a speeding ticket where you might pay $150 now, but then pay $1500 over the next several years for increased insurance premiums. In the future, if you are guilty, pay your fine and be on your way. It will give the few who aren't guilty a fighting chance.
P.S. A prosecutor can't hold someone in contempt of court. Only a judge.
3. People largely showed up because they were pissed that others didn't get ticketed and they did, and because they were hoping that they could get out the fine. Many were counting on putting this strain on the system and thinking they needed to bring in the police office or they would instantly have the changes dropped. The majority of the people there should have just paid their fine in the first place. When their system was flood with people who were now become a nuisance for a 2nd time, they reacted quite poorly.
The people were there because every single ticket issue had the check box marked, MUST APPEAR. It was Camden's decision to follow that policy. They wanted everyone to come to the kangaroo court because they knew they were going to jack the fines up.
This was a premeditated action by the police in conjuntion with the court system to screw anyone who was caught in the middle. When you have 1000's of people enjoying themselves in what appears to be a sanctioned drinking area, it is inevitable that a percentage will migrate towards the venue still holding a beer. My wife missed it by circumstances, luckily.
My friend would have gladly paid the $78 fine and court costs if he was given the option to do so.
The people were there because every single ticket issue had the check box marked, MUST APPEAR. It was Camden's decision to follow that policy. They wanted everyone to come to the kangaroo court because they knew they were going to jack the fines up.
This was a premeditated action by the police in conjuntion with the court system to screw anyone who was caught in the middle. When you have 1000's of people enjoying themselves in what appears to be a sanctioned drinking area, it is inevitable that a percentage will migrate towards the venue still holding a beer. My wife missed it by circumstances, luckily.
My friend would have gladly paid the $78 fine and court costs if he was given the option to do so.
This was a pure money grab by any means.
ken
Missed the 'MUST APPEAR' piece, although I have to say that makes the case worse, not better. That should have been a serious indicator that the police would be suggesting to the DA's office that the individual be charged with something greater than what they were ticketed with. That is why they check that box. I personally never, ever would have walked into that situation without a good local lawyer. I do certainly understand how others did not.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous that a $500 fine plus court costs would be the minimum fine here and the maximum, which the prosecutor was threatening, would involve jail time. Having plead guilty, I think there is just about zero cost-effective recourse for your friend other than warning people.
That the city of Camden has suffered fully from the effects of corruption is a very easy case to make. Do I personally have video of the money exchanging hands? Of course not. But from doing just a smattering of research it is easy to see the course of Camden politics. By driving just 1 block off the main grid, you see the poverty that is a direct result of funds being syphoned off for illicit purposes.
Do you have proof that Camden is not corrupt?
As far as PJ fans standing up for their rights, my friend saw 99.9% of those around him cave, just like he did. What happened in Camden was wrong. It pisses me off as a citizen of this country.
4 articles about the same story about Mayor Milan.. kinda redundant, the others cite parking authority, Newark and just New Jersey in general. So nothing about the court system or the police department... nice job.
Your friend saw.. if your friend is that pissed why aren't they pursuing this??? Why aren't they talking to your lawyer??? You said you only needed one person to step up... As you stated, they broke everyone up into small groups to "intimidate them", so how many people did your friend see??? how many in his small group pleaded guilty??? What happened could possibly be wrong or the court could have been well within their rights to raise individual fines given the large scale of citations handed out for public consumption or do to the discretion of the court. You do know that courts have leeway in dealing with fines and pentalties correct??? They have just as much leeway to lower or throw out a fine or points on a ticket as they do to raise or add to it.
With all of that said, the key issue here is one of rights and we shouldn't forget that. By using a continually escalating penalty, Camden is saying, in essense, is that an individual does not have the ability to be heard and challenge your accuser, which is the cornerstone of our legal system. This situation is unjust and reeks of tyranny. I hope those that were bullied into paying $500 do find recourse, but it is unlikely.
larry- no one was denied any rights here. They all had the same rights they had when they walked into court with the original fine amount. They all had the right an attorney at any point before their plea, they all had the right to plead not guilty, and they all had the right to plead guilty. According to karma's friend- most chose to waive their rights and plead guilty without a lawyer... that was their CHOICE, no one took that away from them.
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Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
Bob Dylan said it best when he wrote, "In Jersey everything's legal as long as you don't get caught."
I'm a lifelong resident and although I can't believe people don't have more sense about pouring a beer into a cup, it is wrong that their charges were amended. This idea might be out of left field, but I'm thinking Jersey here, maybe the number of citations issued was what prompted the upped charges? Kind of contributing to an atmosphere kind of a thing?
I hope something can be done after the fact, as seems is being pursued, but seriously, just bring a cup next time. It would be nice if folks would tidy up after themselves, too. The only thing that shocks me more than the charges getting upped is the state of the parking lots when there are trash cans and dumpsters nearly empty in every direction after a show....
Bob Dylan said it best when he wrote, "In Jersey everything's legal as long as you don't get caught."
I'm a lifelong resident and although I can't believe people don't have more sense about pouring a beer into a cup, it is wrong that their charges were amended. This idea might be out of left field, but I'm thinking Jersey here, maybe the number of citations issued was what prompted the upped charges? Kind of contributing to an atmosphere kind of a thing?
I hope something can be done after the fact, as seems is being pursued, but seriously, just bring a cup next time. It would be nice if folks would tidy up after themselves, too. The only thing that shocks me more than the charges getting upped is the state of the parking lots when there are trash cans and dumpsters nearly empty in every direction after a show....
So it's okay if they pour it into a cup? They are still drinking in public. Never drank in the parking lot, and I'm scared to now after hearing people's horror stories.
I'm reaching out to the fans that were royally screwed by the cops and the justice system of Camden.
Quick recap, at the Pearl Jam Camden concerts this past June, the cops were preying upon uninformed concert goers by seemingly ignoring any drinking in the parking lots but ticketing those with open containers in any public spaces. Now ignorance of the law is not an excuse so if those who were targeted were given the opportunity to pay off the fine and get it over with, end of story.
However, the government of Camden chose a different route. Here is the email a friend of mine sent after being screwed by the court system:
"Well my court date was a complete nightmare. Turns out there were about 1000 other people there that were also at the Pearl Jam show. I would say 99% of the people in court. When we got there they called out our names individually and we had to go up to the prosecuter who told us our fine. Meanest woman I've ever been in contact with. Not rude to me, but out of hand with other people simply trying to ask her a question. Threatening to hold them in contempt of court for asking questions.
When I got up to her desk, she said the charge of "Drinking in Public" which had a fine of $78 had been amended and now the offense was "inapropriate behavior" which held a minimum fine of $500 up to $1000 with 60 days jail time. She said the court was recommending the $500 fine. If I were to plead "not guilty" they would set a trial date at a later time in which they would try and prosecute for the higher penalty. So... of course everyone at the courthouse pleads guilty and all people in attendance are to pay $500 + $33 in court costs.
I'm not sure how they were allowed to change the charge after the ticket had already been written. It went from $78 - $500 without anyone knowing until the day of court. A lot of us compared tickets and everyone I talked to had "drinking in public" written on their ticket as the penalty.
Whats kinda funny is the people who were under 21 (some looking 14 or 15) were charged with the same fine. I am 31 years old and I was having a beer. Now I'm out $533. Wow... Needless to say I was shocked. A lot of girls that were there were sobbing. What a day. Pretty scary how the law can pretty much do whatever they want. I guess they could have fined everyone $10,000 if they chose to. It is either pay your fine or go to jail. So people will pay any amount.
That was the 8:30AM court time.... They also have a 12:30PM court time which was probably filled up as well."
With all that said, Pearl Jam fans were utterly ripped off and lied to and forced into an unfair situation. I contacted about 20 media outlets in the Philadelphia area with one anemic response from a disc jockey at WYSP. I also posted about this travesty of justice on another forum and was put in touch with an active NJ lawyer who has an interest in this type of civic disparity.
I need someone who was ticketed to email me at karmakvisser@yahoo.com. I want to put you in touch with this lawyer. No cost for the conversation. Merely exploring the exact nature of the charges and to see if there is a possibility of a lawsuit. My main goal is to stop this totally horrendous practice and to warn any future concert goers of the scam. Don't let anyone else fall victim to these assholes!
Eddie is always talking about people being accountable for their actions and furthermore, holding the government accountable for its actions! Stand up for your rights and show the assholes in the Camden judicial system that they can't stampede a bunch of younger folks into paying for a corrupt government!
Happy Monday!
ken
welcome to life, you didn't get screwed, this is nothing new, you can have your day in court, if you forego that constitutional right because of it's inconvenience, then who's fault is it. If you would have went to court, you probably would have had the case dropped on the trial date. The police usually don't have time to show up for court on these minor offenses.
so you said it best, ignorance it no excuse. It's a life lesson, sorry it happened, but you act like they targeted PJ fans only. What do you know about the situation in that area? Have you verified that they don't have a problem with DUI's or drunk in public incidences at that venue, and they are cracking down? A recent DUI crash leading to a death could be why? Could have been some assinine fans that pissed off the police that night that lead to the changes? As for the fines, that's pretty stantard across the U S in cities, maybe not towns, that there is a lot of variations of fines they can throw at you for an incident.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
this thing still has legs?!?!?!? simple solution...stop going to camden / NJ for entertainment...plan and simple...that's the message that needs to be heard, until then, keep crying in your beer how badly you were treated...
So it's okay if they pour it into a cup? They are still drinking in public. Never drank in the parking lot, and I'm scared to now after hearing people's horror stories.
According to the ordinance it's still not OKAY but the cops were not hassling anyone with a cup unless they looked like they could have been under age. I go to a lot of shows (Camden and elsewhere) and the cops all seem to be fine with the cup approach, even though it is clearly still a violation. I guess it's the best they can do to enforce the law when there are literally thousands breaking it. Weakest links get pinched. Not right, just the way it is.
So it's okay if they pour it into a cup? They are still drinking in public. Never drank in the parking lot, and I'm scared to now after hearing people's horror stories.
If you're in the lots right by the venue, the cops won't hassle you. If you park at the lots 3 blocks away down by the aquarium and walk on the street (out of the lots) with beer either in a cup or a bottle you may get cited.
I was at a concert 2 weeks ago and have been to 4 so far this summer at Camden and parked in the lots right across from the venue and tailgated and never had a problem. Just be smart and don't drink on the street and you'll be fine at Camden.
Comments
There a few things that should be obvious but don't appear to based on a lot of the response. So let's get the following out of the way first:
1. The guy WAS drinking a beer in a public place and was admitted guilty of what he was ticketed for.
2. The police were there for crowd control. They have some selection in how they carry this out and how they ticket, just in the way that a police office on the side of the road with a radar gun isn't going to stop every car or the first car he finds driving over 55 MPH.
3. This put a massive strain on the Camden legal system. We can assume that the vast majority of the people there were guilty based on the fact that is incredibly unlikely that the police would ticket those not drinking while they let so many that were drinking off. People largely showed up because they were pissed that others didn't get ticketed and they did, and because they were hoping that they could get out the fine. Many were counting on putting this strain on the system and thinking they needed to bring in the police office or they would instantly have the changes dropped. The majority of the people there should have just paid their fine in the first place. When their system was flood with people who were now become a nuisance for a 2nd time, they reacted quite poorly.
With all of that said, the key issue here is one of rights and we shouldn't forget that. By using a continually escalating penalty, Camden is saying, in essense, is that an individual does not have the ability to be heard and challenge your accuser, which is the cornerstone of our legal system. This situation is unjust and reeks of tyranny. I hope those that were bullied into paying $500 do find recourse, but it is unlikely.
$78 was a completely reasonable fine. It's not even a situation like a speeding ticket where you might pay $150 now, but then pay $1500 over the next several years for increased insurance premiums. In the future, if you are guilty, pay your fine and be on your way. It will give the few who aren't guilty a fighting chance.
P.S. A prosecutor can't hold someone in contempt of court. Only a judge.
The people were there because every single ticket issue had the check box marked, MUST APPEAR. It was Camden's decision to follow that policy. They wanted everyone to come to the kangaroo court because they knew they were going to jack the fines up.
This was a premeditated action by the police in conjuntion with the court system to screw anyone who was caught in the middle. When you have 1000's of people enjoying themselves in what appears to be a sanctioned drinking area, it is inevitable that a percentage will migrate towards the venue still holding a beer. My wife missed it by circumstances, luckily.
My friend would have gladly paid the $78 fine and court costs if he was given the option to do so.
This was a pure money grab by any means.
ken
Missed the 'MUST APPEAR' piece, although I have to say that makes the case worse, not better. That should have been a serious indicator that the police would be suggesting to the DA's office that the individual be charged with something greater than what they were ticketed with. That is why they check that box. I personally never, ever would have walked into that situation without a good local lawyer. I do certainly understand how others did not.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous that a $500 fine plus court costs would be the minimum fine here and the maximum, which the prosecutor was threatening, would involve jail time. Having plead guilty, I think there is just about zero cost-effective recourse for your friend other than warning people.
4 articles about the same story about Mayor Milan.. kinda redundant, the others cite parking authority, Newark and just New Jersey in general. So nothing about the court system or the police department... nice job.
Your friend saw.. if your friend is that pissed why aren't they pursuing this??? Why aren't they talking to your lawyer??? You said you only needed one person to step up... As you stated, they broke everyone up into small groups to "intimidate them", so how many people did your friend see??? how many in his small group pleaded guilty??? What happened could possibly be wrong or the court could have been well within their rights to raise individual fines given the large scale of citations handed out for public consumption or do to the discretion of the court. You do know that courts have leeway in dealing with fines and pentalties correct??? They have just as much leeway to lower or throw out a fine or points on a ticket as they do to raise or add to it.
larry- no one was denied any rights here. They all had the same rights they had when they walked into court with the original fine amount. They all had the right an attorney at any point before their plea, they all had the right to plead not guilty, and they all had the right to plead guilty. According to karma's friend- most chose to waive their rights and plead guilty without a lawyer... that was their CHOICE, no one took that away from them.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
I'm a lifelong resident and although I can't believe people don't have more sense about pouring a beer into a cup, it is wrong that their charges were amended. This idea might be out of left field, but I'm thinking Jersey here, maybe the number of citations issued was what prompted the upped charges? Kind of contributing to an atmosphere kind of a thing?
I hope something can be done after the fact, as seems is being pursued, but seriously, just bring a cup next time. It would be nice if folks would tidy up after themselves, too. The only thing that shocks me more than the charges getting upped is the state of the parking lots when there are trash cans and dumpsters nearly empty in every direction after a show....
So it's okay if they pour it into a cup? They are still drinking in public. Never drank in the parking lot, and I'm scared to now after hearing people's horror stories.
welcome to life, you didn't get screwed, this is nothing new, you can have your day in court, if you forego that constitutional right because of it's inconvenience, then who's fault is it. If you would have went to court, you probably would have had the case dropped on the trial date. The police usually don't have time to show up for court on these minor offenses.
so you said it best, ignorance it no excuse. It's a life lesson, sorry it happened, but you act like they targeted PJ fans only. What do you know about the situation in that area? Have you verified that they don't have a problem with DUI's or drunk in public incidences at that venue, and they are cracking down? A recent DUI crash leading to a death could be why? Could have been some assinine fans that pissed off the police that night that lead to the changes? As for the fines, that's pretty stantard across the U S in cities, maybe not towns, that there is a lot of variations of fines they can throw at you for an incident.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
If you're in the lots right by the venue, the cops won't hassle you. If you park at the lots 3 blocks away down by the aquarium and walk on the street (out of the lots) with beer either in a cup or a bottle you may get cited.
I was at a concert 2 weeks ago and have been to 4 so far this summer at Camden and parked in the lots right across from the venue and tailgated and never had a problem. Just be smart and don't drink on the street and you'll be fine at Camden.
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