wiki: Virtually all modern scholars agree that Jesus existed

DriftingByTheStorm
DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
edited April 2013 in A Moving Train
Alright guys and girls.
Time to stir the pot here.

Wikipedia: Historicity of Jesus
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. While there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD. Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea, did not preach or study elsewhere and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and possibly Greek. Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and shortly afterwards was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

then ... over at:
Wiki: Crucifixion of Jesus
Jesus' crucifixion is described in all four Canonical gospels, attested to by other ancient sources, and is firmly established as an historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources.

Also, of note to me, since i have heard *repeatedly* by skeptics of all sorts that "crucifixion did not even exist at the time of jesus" (and the cross is only an astrological reference, blah blah blah) ...
Although almost all ancient sources relating to crucifixion are literary, the 1968 archeological discovery just northeast of Jerusalem of the body of a crucified man dated to the 1st century provided good confirmatory evidence of the gospel accounts of crucifixion .[26] The crucified man was identified as Yohan Ben Ha'galgol and probably died about 70 AD, around the time of the Jewish revolt against Rome.

Okay.
So?

i'm not taking sides here. (ok, per below, well maybe a bit)
i just find it interesting.
although personally (having no religious affiliation, having been raises agnostic by parents who were catholic (mom) and jewish (dad) by familial relation, but staunchly agnostic by personal opinion) ... after having waited till i was in my late 20's to even bother opening a bible, and having finally read a good bit of it -- out of raw curiosity, not some sort of miraculous midlife conversion -- (still haven't read Acts or Romans, and maybe missed an epistle or two) ... i find it rather hard to believe that not only was the entirety of this book "fabricated" "out of thin air" with NO basis in fact\history (ie. the central character is entirely false \ fabricated) but i find it even less plausible (far less plausible) that SOOOO many people would have meticulously HAND copied these works and passed them on without *strong motivation* (and by strong motivation, i am really referring to a: "you fucking killed my leader, we will not let his memory die" sort of thing)
also, if you start digging in to the dead sea scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi library texts, and you start reading the research around them (and you actually study who the Essenes were) it becomes pretty hard not to start making connections. Once you have done that you have already started the process vis-a-vis a KNOWN historical backdrop of connecting the "jesus" of "myth" with an actual factual historical milieu. At this point things start becoming pretty goddamn intriguing, if not compelling even.

Just saying.
ramble over.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    There is no reason for Jesus (or whatever the correct name was) of Galilee not to exist. Quite a common name, crucifixion quite a common thing... Yep... he could have existed as man.

    Jesus, son of god is another story..... ;)
  • Does not matter who anybody writes a story about, the facts will get out of hand. I mean take Wayne Gretzky, fucking guy was god on ice. Nobody can argue that. Now if I write a story about him and say that he magically appeared, born to some lucky couple in some town in Ontario, Canada, and by the time he was four months he was willing pucks into top hand corners and throwing behind the back passes to his wingers (apostles) flying down the ice, who is going to disbelieve that. :lol: Just saying for the record.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • Bentleyspop
    Bentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,721
    Don't forget thet Jesus ben Joseph was Jewish

    How do we know this?

    Because he lived at home till he was 30
    And his mom thought he was god!!
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
  • Pap
    Pap Serres, Greece Posts: 30,374
    Old news... We all know that Jesus Christ was a historic person. Every scientist agrees on this. End of story.
    Athens 2006 / Milton Keynes 2014 / London 1&2 2022 / Seattle 1&2 2024 / Dublin 2024 / Manchester 2024 / New Orleans 2025
  • BinauralJam
    BinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Don't forget thet Jesus ben Joseph was Jewish

    How do we know this?

    Because he lived at home till he was 30
    And his mom thought he was god!!
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


    :clap: :lol:
    47c3861fe4afb1f750f4b72d91e5b071.jpeg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYFuILEfao
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,843
    And any good music fan know Jesus was a Capricorn. ;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCdfYkUPvTs
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    I still can't quite decide on the historicity of Jesus but I continue to circle around to these two questions.

    First, many of the origins of Jesus also coincide with the existence of other historical deities. I question whether those who wrote the Bible were aware and/or borrowed their historical thoughts from previous incarnations of "deities" like Horus, etc.

    Second, all historicalaccounts of the existence of Jesus come many years after his death. Most cited sources include Josephus who was not a contemporary of Jesus. Citing the gospels is problematic, in my mind, because then we have to determine whether those men existed, knew Jesus, etc. I haven't read any books on this particular topic but it is definitely an interesting topic to pursue!
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    I really enjoyed your ramble, thank you.
    I have an obsession, compelling feeling about Jesus the man. I have enjoyed
    what I have learned about his life. Though I can not say without a doubt that
    he rose from the dead I am inclined to believe because we all do in a manner.
    It's just not something we see everyday ;) I believe in miracles, unexplained phenomenon,
    God and spirit. So I take the story from long ago and bring it to my life.
    It feels right, actually much better than right. It fits.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    (ie. the central character is entirely false \ fabricated) .

    Another theory is that the myth of Jesus was created by combining the tales/stories/legends/myths/possible facts of a number of people together. A bit like the legend of Arthur.

    As riotgrl said, the many gospels were not contemporary and therefore the 'legends'. One must bear in mind that the bible is a catalogue of several gospels/writing - all written at different times - that was put together with an 'agenda' (thus the gospels that were left out because not deemed to further the doctrine).
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,615
    We had a pretty good debate about this a few months back with one side, if I remember correctly, arguing that there is zero evidence that he existed. I could have used some of these "modern scholars" to back up my case. :lol:
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Growing up, Jesus Christ Superstar was one of my favorite albums...still have the double-LP.

    Reading through this thread, couldn't help but think of these lyrics. Kinda makes sense, and even applies in these modern times to those we (mistakenly, stupidly, blindly) consider or deem god-like.


    You've started to believe
    The things they say of you
    You really do believe
    This talk of God is true

    And all the good you've done
    Will soon be swept away
    You've begun to matter more
    Than the things you say

    Listen Jesus
    I don't like what I see
    All I ask is that you listen to me
    And remember
    I've been your right hand man all along
    You have set them all on fire
    They think they've found the new Messiah
    And they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong

    I remember when this whole thing began
    No talk of God then, we called you a man
    And believe me
    My admiration for you hasn't died
    But every word you say today
    Gets twisted 'round some other way
    And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    hedonist wrote:
    Growing up, Jesus Christ Superstar was one of my favorite albums...still have the double-LP.

    Reading through this thread, couldn't help but think of these lyrics. Kinda makes sense, and even applies in these modern times to those we (mistakenly, stupidly, blindly) consider or deem god-like.


    You've started to believe
    The things they say of you
    You really do believe
    This talk of God is true

    And all the good you've done
    Will soon be swept away
    You've begun to matter more
    Than the things you say

    Listen Jesus
    I don't like what I see
    All I ask is that you listen to me
    And remember
    I've been your right hand man all along
    You have set them all on fire
    They think they've found the new Messiah
    And they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong

    I remember when this whole thing began
    No talk of God then, we called you a man
    And believe me
    My admiration for you hasn't died
    But every word you say today
    Gets twisted 'round some other way
    And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
    Gethsemane (I Only Want To Say). I get chills and cry. The man Jesus ...
    'take this cup away from me' each of us would beg the same.
    To conquer death all we must do is die.
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 32,344
    It doesn't make a difference whether he did or didn't exist , hi's not working for me i still have to pay my own mortgage every month .......
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,976
    It doesn't make a difference whether he did or didn't exist , hi's not working for me i still have to pay my own mortgage every month .......


    You need this guy!!!

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... Aw&dur=666
    hippiemom = goodness
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    my english professor who has a ph.d in badass shit told us students do not use or trust wikipedia. thank you
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    wtf
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Jesus' crucifixion is described in all four Canonical gospels, attested to by other ancient sources, and is firmly established as an historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources.

    Such as?
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,747
    Don't forget thet Jesus ben Joseph was Jewish

    How do we know this?

    Because he lived at home till he was 30
    And his mom thought he was god!!
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
    haha..that made me laugh so hard!!
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    chadwick wrote:
    my english professor who has a ph.d in badass shit told us students do not use or trust wikipedia. thank you

    And Professors are always 100% accurate and never have their own agendas, correct?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Jesus' crucifixion is described in all four Canonical gospels, attested to by other ancient sources, and is firmly established as an historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources.

    Such as?

    Hey Byrnzie.
    I removed all the source footnotes from those quotes to keep them clean.
    They were all trailed by 3 or 4 source notes a piece.

    Feel free to check out the source links i left in the OP and browse them yourself.
    That wasn't my statement. Those were from wikipedia pages.
    I just thought it was really interesting.
    I know wiki is publicly editable,
    but i've seen plenty of contested\debated pages, and they are usually marked "the neutrality [or accuracy] of this page is in dispute, click here to read the dialogue" or some such.
    I REALLY thought, with such "wild" claims, these two jesus pages would have those notes up top, but they dont.
    Weird?
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?