wiki: Virtually all modern scholars agree that Jesus existed
DriftingByTheStorm
Posts: 8,684
Alright guys and girls.
Time to stir the pot here.
Wikipedia: Historicity of Jesus
then ... over at:
Wiki: Crucifixion of Jesus
Also, of note to me, since i have heard *repeatedly* by skeptics of all sorts that "crucifixion did not even exist at the time of jesus" (and the cross is only an astrological reference, blah blah blah) ...
Okay.
So?
i'm not taking sides here. (ok, per below, well maybe a bit)
i just find it interesting.
although personally (having no religious affiliation, having been raises agnostic by parents who were catholic (mom) and jewish (dad) by familial relation, but staunchly agnostic by personal opinion) ... after having waited till i was in my late 20's to even bother opening a bible, and having finally read a good bit of it -- out of raw curiosity, not some sort of miraculous midlife conversion -- (still haven't read Acts or Romans, and maybe missed an epistle or two) ... i find it rather hard to believe that not only was the entirety of this book "fabricated" "out of thin air" with NO basis in fact\history (ie. the central character is entirely false \ fabricated) but i find it even less plausible (far less plausible) that SOOOO many people would have meticulously HAND copied these works and passed them on without *strong motivation* (and by strong motivation, i am really referring to a: "you fucking killed my leader, we will not let his memory die" sort of thing)
also, if you start digging in to the dead sea scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi library texts, and you start reading the research around them (and you actually study who the Essenes were) it becomes pretty hard not to start making connections. Once you have done that you have already started the process vis-a-vis a KNOWN historical backdrop of connecting the "jesus" of "myth" with an actual factual historical milieu. At this point things start becoming pretty goddamn intriguing, if not compelling even.
Just saying.
ramble over.
Time to stir the pot here.
Wikipedia: Historicity of Jesus
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. While there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD. Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea, did not preach or study elsewhere and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and possibly Greek. Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and shortly afterwards was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.
then ... over at:
Wiki: Crucifixion of Jesus
Jesus' crucifixion is described in all four Canonical gospels, attested to by other ancient sources, and is firmly established as an historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources.
Also, of note to me, since i have heard *repeatedly* by skeptics of all sorts that "crucifixion did not even exist at the time of jesus" (and the cross is only an astrological reference, blah blah blah) ...
Although almost all ancient sources relating to crucifixion are literary, the 1968 archeological discovery just northeast of Jerusalem of the body of a crucified man dated to the 1st century provided good confirmatory evidence of the gospel accounts of crucifixion .[26] The crucified man was identified as Yohan Ben Ha'galgol and probably died about 70 AD, around the time of the Jewish revolt against Rome.
Okay.
So?
i'm not taking sides here. (ok, per below, well maybe a bit)
i just find it interesting.
although personally (having no religious affiliation, having been raises agnostic by parents who were catholic (mom) and jewish (dad) by familial relation, but staunchly agnostic by personal opinion) ... after having waited till i was in my late 20's to even bother opening a bible, and having finally read a good bit of it -- out of raw curiosity, not some sort of miraculous midlife conversion -- (still haven't read Acts or Romans, and maybe missed an epistle or two) ... i find it rather hard to believe that not only was the entirety of this book "fabricated" "out of thin air" with NO basis in fact\history (ie. the central character is entirely false \ fabricated) but i find it even less plausible (far less plausible) that SOOOO many people would have meticulously HAND copied these works and passed them on without *strong motivation* (and by strong motivation, i am really referring to a: "you fucking killed my leader, we will not let his memory die" sort of thing)
also, if you start digging in to the dead sea scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi library texts, and you start reading the research around them (and you actually study who the Essenes were) it becomes pretty hard not to start making connections. Once you have done that you have already started the process vis-a-vis a KNOWN historical backdrop of connecting the "jesus" of "myth" with an actual factual historical milieu. At this point things start becoming pretty goddamn intriguing, if not compelling even.
Just saying.
ramble over.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
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There is no reason for Jesus (or whatever the correct name was) of Galilee not to exist. Quite a common name, crucifixion quite a common thing... Yep... he could have existed as man.
Jesus, son of god is another story.....
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Does not matter who anybody writes a story about, the facts will get out of hand. I mean take Wayne Gretzky, fucking guy was god on ice. Nobody can argue that. Now if I write a story about him and say that he magically appeared, born to some lucky couple in some town in Ontario, Canada, and by the time he was four months he was willing pucks into top hand corners and throwing behind the back passes to his wingers (apostles) flying down the ice, who is going to disbelieve that.
Just saying for the record. The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
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Don't forget thet Jesus ben Joseph was Jewish
How do we know this?
Because he lived at home till he was 30
And his mom thought he was god!!



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Old news... We all know that Jesus Christ was a historic person. Every scientist agrees on this. End of story.Athens 2006 / Milton Keynes 2014 / London 1&2 2022 / Seattle 1&2 2024 / Dublin 2024 / Manchester 2024 / New Orleans 20250
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Bentleyspop wrote:Don't forget thet Jesus ben Joseph was Jewish
How do we know this?
Because he lived at home till he was 30
And his mom thought he was god!!




:clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYFuILEfao0 -
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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I still can't quite decide on the historicity of Jesus but I continue to circle around to these two questions.
First, many of the origins of Jesus also coincide with the existence of other historical deities. I question whether those who wrote the Bible were aware and/or borrowed their historical thoughts from previous incarnations of "deities" like Horus, etc.
Second, all historicalaccounts of the existence of Jesus come many years after his death. Most cited sources include Josephus who was not a contemporary of Jesus. Citing the gospels is problematic, in my mind, because then we have to determine whether those men existed, knew Jesus, etc. I haven't read any books on this particular topic but it is definitely an interesting topic to pursue!Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE0 -
I really enjoyed your ramble, thank you.
I have an obsession, compelling feeling about Jesus the man. I have enjoyed
what I have learned about his life. Though I can not say without a doubt that
he rose from the dead I am inclined to believe because we all do in a manner.
It's just not something we see everyday
I believe in miracles, unexplained phenomenon,
God and spirit. So I take the story from long ago and bring it to my life.
It feels right, actually much better than right. It fits.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:(ie. the central character is entirely false \ fabricated) .
Another theory is that the myth of Jesus was created by combining the tales/stories/legends/myths/possible facts of a number of people together. A bit like the legend of Arthur.
As riotgrl said, the many gospels were not contemporary and therefore the 'legends'. One must bear in mind that the bible is a catalogue of several gospels/writing - all written at different times - that was put together with an 'agenda' (thus the gospels that were left out because not deemed to further the doctrine).0 -
We had a pretty good debate about this a few months back with one side, if I remember correctly, arguing that there is zero evidence that he existed. I could have used some of these "modern scholars" to back up my case.
___________________________________________
"...I changed by not changing at all..."0 -
Growing up, Jesus Christ Superstar was one of my favorite albums...still have the double-LP.
Reading through this thread, couldn't help but think of these lyrics. Kinda makes sense, and even applies in these modern times to those we (mistakenly, stupidly, blindly) consider or deem god-like.
You've started to believe
The things they say of you
You really do believe
This talk of God is true
And all the good you've done
Will soon be swept away
You've begun to matter more
Than the things you say
Listen Jesus
I don't like what I see
All I ask is that you listen to me
And remember
I've been your right hand man all along
You have set them all on fire
They think they've found the new Messiah
And they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong
I remember when this whole thing began
No talk of God then, we called you a man
And believe me
My admiration for you hasn't died
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied0 -
Gethsemane (I Only Want To Say). I get chills and cry. The man Jesus ...hedonist wrote:Growing up, Jesus Christ Superstar was one of my favorite albums...still have the double-LP.
Reading through this thread, couldn't help but think of these lyrics. Kinda makes sense, and even applies in these modern times to those we (mistakenly, stupidly, blindly) consider or deem god-like.
You've started to believe
The things they say of you
You really do believe
This talk of God is true
And all the good you've done
Will soon be swept away
You've begun to matter more
Than the things you say
Listen Jesus
I don't like what I see
All I ask is that you listen to me
And remember
I've been your right hand man all along
You have set them all on fire
They think they've found the new Messiah
And they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong
I remember when this whole thing began
No talk of God then, we called you a man
And believe me
My admiration for you hasn't died
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
'take this cup away from me' each of us would beg the same.
To conquer death all we must do is die.0 -
It doesn't make a difference whether he did or didn't exist , hi's not working for me i still have to pay my own mortgage every month .......jesus greets me looks just like me ....0
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josevolution wrote:It doesn't make a difference whether he did or didn't exist , hi's not working for me i still have to pay my own mortgage every month .......
You need this guy!!!
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... Aw&dur=666hippiemom = goodness0 -
my english professor who has a ph.d in badass shit told us students do not use or trust wikipedia. thank youfor poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce0 -
wtffor poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Jesus' crucifixion is described in all four Canonical gospels, attested to by other ancient sources, and is firmly established as an historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources.
Such as?0 -
haha..that made me laugh so hard!!Bentleyspop wrote:Don't forget thet Jesus ben Joseph was Jewish
How do we know this?
Because he lived at home till he was 30
And his mom thought he was god!!



"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”0 -
chadwick wrote:my english professor who has a ph.d in badass shit told us students do not use or trust wikipedia. thank you
And Professors are always 100% accurate and never have their own agendas, correct?The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
Byrnzie wrote:DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Jesus' crucifixion is described in all four Canonical gospels, attested to by other ancient sources, and is firmly established as an historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources.
Such as?
Hey Byrnzie.
I removed all the source footnotes from those quotes to keep them clean.
They were all trailed by 3 or 4 source notes a piece.
Feel free to check out the source links i left in the OP and browse them yourself.
That wasn't my statement. Those were from wikipedia pages.
I just thought it was really interesting.
I know wiki is publicly editable,
but i've seen plenty of contested\debated pages, and they are usually marked "the neutrality [or accuracy] of this page is in dispute, click here to read the dialogue" or some such.
I REALLY thought, with such "wild" claims, these two jesus pages would have those notes up top, but they dont.
Weird?If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0
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