Honest question for Theists

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  • markin ball
    markin ball Posts: 1,076
    mickeyrat wrote:
    I think everyone can agree that humans have "freewill" and certainly acts such as those of last week are exclusively within the scope of human freewill.

    So I think its more giving credit or thanks for the positives as opposed to blaming when freewill exerts itself.

    Human "freewill" is a massively debated topic even without considering things like "God's plans". Just sayin'.
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

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  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    I'm a Muslim and I got to be honest here, it sure is getting harder and harder to keep believing in any religion. With all the world going to shit (don't mean to be a downer) I keep finding myself asking,"where's god, and what's he doing that he's so busy that he can't fix what's wrong with us?" I know that if I created something with life, I sure as hell wouldnt turn my back on them and let them go to the devil. No pun intended. But that's just my thinking.

    Oh and merry Xmas to all my Christian pearl jam family!
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    know1 wrote:
    Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

    ok, so what's the bigger picture of Newtown or Columbine or Katrina or....?
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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    badbrains wrote:
    I'm a Muslim and I got to be honest here, it sure is getting harder and harder to keep believing in any religion. With all the world going to shit (don't mean to be a downer) I keep finding myself asking,"where's god, and what's he doing that he's so busy that he can't fix what's wrong with us?" I know that if I created something with life, I sure as hell wouldnt turn my back on them and let them go to the devil. No pun intended. But that's just my thinking.

    Oh and merry Xmas to all my Christian pearl jam family!

    my 6 year old is already starting to not talk to me sometimes. And sometimes I just give up trying, depending on the day. So I can see someone who is the parent of a disturbed child not knowing the full extent of their mental illness, simple for lack of communication, and thinking "he's just a brooding teenager, no different than anyone else's kid". Taking the kid to a shooting range, well, in 99.9999999% of cases that probably would have been harmless.
    Gimli 1993
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    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Let's not discount... evil...ution

    The bigger picture of all the tragedies is all the good and love
    that comes from them.

    When one believes in everlasting life we know when life is lost here
    it is not lost.
    Some even believe we choose how we die before we come here.
    We choose for the lessons of others. We are all connected and connected to God.
    Past present future is one time simultaneously. When one sees reality there
    it answers many questions.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    know1 wrote:
    Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

    ok, so what's the bigger picture of Newtown or Columbine or Katrina or....?

    Eternity
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    know1 wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    know1 wrote:
    Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

    ok, so what's the bigger picture of Newtown or Columbine or Katrina or....?

    Eternity

    that's not even an answer.
    Gimli 1993
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    St. Paul 2014
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    that's not even an answer.

    theism requires no real answers... just faith. and as we know faith requires no real answers except those that we feel.. and what we feel is hardly objective.
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  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    I think this is a question everyone grapples with. Why do bad things happen? Why do bad things happen to good people? This isnt just a question that troubles theists. Its a universal questioning.

    Doubt and questioning are bedrocks of faith and all religions. Doubt is a fundamental part of it. Abraham doubted. And Job asked the very question, why God?

    The movie Tree of Life did an excellent job of trying to formulate a reason why God allows tragedy and suffering and what the purpose of our time on earth is. My beliefs allign with those put forward in the film.

    I think the nature of tragedy and suffering is you probably arent telling your friends or neighbors about it. Whereas, if you win the lottery, or you buy a new car, or get a promotion thats something you will shout from the rooftops. I think religious people do blame God. And ask Why. Why me? All that. As I said, thats a fundamental part of any religion. But i think alot of relgious or spiritual people feel things have a purpose, a point, a reason. So things that go wrong, or bad, or horrible in our lives, are seen as a test, a hurdle, some sort of obstacle put there by God for a reason we dont yet understand.

    I see Gods handprint in everything that occurs. There is some purpose behind it. Some meaning.

    I also think religious people have views on why tragedy and violence and all that occurs, which in turns informs their feelings on who they blame for it all. Some ideas ive seen tossed around are that God has a plan, everything happens for a reason, that suffering and violence exist because it makes us appreciate life, that suffering and violence are in existance because they force us to become who we really are.

    For me, im spiritual, and have long wondered about all this. When things go wrong in my life ive wondered about all this as well.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    I think religious people do blame God. And ask Why. Why me? All that.

    I have yet to see ONE, just ONE, on this forum, admit that. And I highly doubt I ever will.
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    St. Paul 2014
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    I think religious people do blame God. And ask Why. Why me? All that.

    I have yet to see ONE, just ONE, on this forum, admit that. And I highly doubt I ever will.
    Maybe not, but isn't "why" - "and why me" (whether asked rhetorically or of god) one stage of grief, of coming to terms?

    I can't say for sure, but were I one who has placed her life in god's hands, and suffered a horrific/unnatural loss, or diagnosed with a terminal illness, whatever - I'd have to ask that.

    Part of the process...I think. We try to make sense (with the little sense we have).
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    I think religious people do blame God. And ask Why. Why me? All that.

    I have yet to see ONE, just ONE, on this forum, admit that. And I highly doubt I ever will.

    Its as i said in my post. Very few people are going to publicly admit they are going through a bad time. The old "how are you doing today?" question rarely will lead to a person talking for 5 minutes about self doubt, loss, sadness, how they cant pay the bills, how their mom has cancer, how their dog just died. Thus we tend to focus only on the good. We only hear the good. A person isnt going to tell you they are having a rough time, let alone tell you they dont know why God would allow it to happen.

    Its also alot easier to comprehend the positive versus the bad. We have all types of explanations why we won the lottery. Why we got that great new job. Why we found that great new house we want to buy. Its alot harder to come up with reasons why people fly planes into buildings or murder others or rape others. It would be just as hard to comprehend and explain it if it happened to us, if we got raped, or got assasulted, or we were injured in 9/11.

    I fit the bill, i am that one. I dont blame God, but I do believe he is behind everything that happens in the world. Both good and bad. Maybe not that God is shooting people in malls or waging wars, but that he allows things to happen, both good and bad. And that our destiny, collectively and individually has been written out eons before we were even born. My path and destiny was written long ago. And ultimately every action I take, is of my own free will, but will eventually lead to my destiny whatever that may be. Its hard to comprehend why he would allow such horrible things to happen. I dont know any more than anyone else on the subject of why such things happen. I do believe in everything happens for a reason.

    Additionally, as I said, doubt is a central part of faith. Thats the meaning of faith. To believe in the face of doubt and to have your faith tested. How can you truely believe in a higher power unless your faith HAS been tested. For many people, the trying times, the bad times only strengthen their faith. People seem to think people of faith always believe in God no matter what. Thats only partly true. There are moments of severe doubt and wondering and questioning. Thats all a part of it. Its natural.

    In fact, i think faith and religion are appealing precisely because of how the world is. Those moments of serene beauty are God just as much as all the tragedy and horror is. And thats hard to deal with or get your mind wrapped around.
  • fear4freedom
    fear4freedom Posts: 920
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    I think religious people do blame God. And ask Why. Why me? All that.

    I have yet to see ONE, just ONE, on this forum, admit that. And I highly doubt I ever will.

    Its as i said in my post. Very few people are going to publicly admit they are going through a bad time. The old "how are you doing today?" question rarely will lead to a person talking for 5 minutes about self doubt, loss, sadness, how they cant pay the bills, how their mom has cancer, how their dog just died. Thus we tend to focus only on the good. We only hear the good. A person isnt going to tell you they are having a rough time, let alone tell you they dont know why God would allow it to happen.

    Its also alot easier to comprehend the positive versus the bad. We have all types of explanations why we won the lottery. Why we got that great new job. Why we found that great new house we want to buy. Its alot harder to come up with reasons why people fly planes into buildings or murder others or rape others. It would be just as hard to comprehend and explain it if it happened to us, if we got raped, or got assasulted, or we were injured in 9/11.

    I fit the bill, i am that one. I dont blame God, but I do believe he is behind everything that happens in the world. Both good and bad. Maybe not that God is shooting people in malls or waging wars, but that he allows things to happen, both good and bad. And that our destiny, collectively and individually has been written out eons before we were even born. My path and destiny was written long ago. And ultimately every action I take, is of my own free will, but will eventually lead to my destiny whatever that may be. Its hard to comprehend why he would allow such horrible things to happen. I dont know any more than anyone else on the subject of why such things happen. I do believe in everything happens for a reason.

    Additionally, as I said, doubt is a central part of faith. Thats the meaning of faith. To believe in the face of doubt and to have your faith tested. How can you truely believe in a higher power unless your faith HAS been tested. For many people, the trying times, the bad times only strengthen their faith. People seem to think people of faith always believe in God no matter what. Thats only partly true. There are moments of severe doubt and wondering and questioning. Thats all a part of it. Its natural.

    In fact, i think faith and religion are appealing precisely because of how the world is. Those moments of serene beauty are God just as much as all the tragedy and horror is. And thats hard to deal with or get your mind wrapped around.

    Well said! Lets try to take a different look at why? I dont know why and noone else does, but maybe God implemented a policy for population control. He knew that humans would strive and innovate in medical technology/medicine therefore we would grow older and older and eventually we would be living longer than what we were meant to be here. Lets say the ideal number of years for being on earth is 75. As we achieve medical milestones more and more of us are living to near 100. Therefore, our global population is reaching its maximum level. There are only enough resources to accomidate for so many people and the more people there are, the less resources per person available. So maybe its all a population control policy put forth by God. He was deeply sad to implement it, but it was necessary cause he was thinking about the children and young when doing it. Its all for the good of the children and the quality of their lives. Just some food for thought!
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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    I don't get how one can have free will and have a pre-determined destiny at the same time. that's contradictory. so what you are saying is God creates the mandate for humankind, but leaves the day to day operations up to....us?
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I don't get how one can have free will and have a pre-determined destiny at the same time. that's contradictory. so what you are saying is God creates the mandate for humankind, but leaves the day to day operations up to....us?


    i think the pre determined destiny is set but its how we get there thats up to us.*

    *im thinking out loud. ;)
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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    catefrances wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I don't get how one can have free will and have a pre-determined destiny at the same time. that's contradictory. so what you are saying is God creates the mandate for humankind, but leaves the day to day operations up to....us?


    i think the pre determined destiny is set but its how we get there thats up to us.*

    *im thinking out loud. ;)

    then that's not really free will. I mean, that means everything I do (including this) means nothing, if every path I take of every second of every day leads to me one pre-determined destination. which I refuse to believe.
    Gimli 1993
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    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I don't get how one can have free will and have a pre-determined destiny at the same time. that's contradictory. so what you are saying is God creates the mandate for humankind, but leaves the day to day operations up to....us?


    i think the pre determined destiny is set but its how we get there thats up to us.*

    *im thinking out loud. ;)

    then that's not really free will. I mean, that means everything I do (including this) means nothing, if every path I take of every second of every day leads to me one pre-determined destination. which I refuse to believe.

    the only pre determined destination in my life is death. everything i do between now and then is up to me.. tho it is also subject to other peoples actions. ive said elsewhere that the only free will we have is how we choose to react to things placed in our oath. we have power only over ourselves. thats my thinking.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
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  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    catefrances wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I don't get how one can have free will and have a pre-determined destiny at the same time. that's contradictory. so what you are saying is God creates the mandate for humankind, but leaves the day to day operations up to....us?


    i think the pre determined destiny is set but its how we get there thats up to us.*

    *im thinking out loud. ;)


    yes, thats my view on it at least. Whatever God planned out for me has been set by him, and was determined years before i even came into existence. I can quit my job, or move to Bangladesh or buy a BMW or become a botanist, but ultimately whatever my path and destiny and calling is, thats what will occur and I will eventually reach it. We can make decisions, I can move out of my apartment tomorrow and move to South Korea, I personally can do that, but my path and destiny has already been decided so it will eventually lead back to whatever that is.

    I am of the belief God also is not only an outside force but is within is. So our thoughts, desires, hopes and dreams are essentially God. As Goethe said "What kind of God only is a force from without". So my desire to be whatever I want to be in life, my desire to be in a certain career or whatever is also a manifestation of God
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I don't get how one can have free will and have a pre-determined destiny at the same time. that's contradictory. so what you are saying is God creates the mandate for humankind, but leaves the day to day operations up to....us?


    i think the pre determined destiny is set but its how we get there thats up to us.*

    *im thinking out loud. ;)

    then that's not really free will. I mean, that means everything I do (including this) means nothing, if every path I take of every second of every day leads to me one pre-determined destination. which I refuse to believe.

    Well, my own thinking doesnt explain death or people dying young or being murdered or war or any of that. Ben Harper once said "'our destiny is greatness". And thats what I believe God views each and every one of us that way. Thats ultimately our destiny. Greatness is different for each and every person though. For some it might be being a famous movie star. For others it may be having kids and a great family.

    As I said, I dont know how to explain tragedy and death and violence and bad things under this way of thinking. If God feels we are destined for greatness and if all our hopes and dreams and desires are God, why would we die of cancer and die young and all that? I have no clue

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