Honest question for Theists

Hugh Freaking Dillon

in times of inexplicable tragedy, I often wonder this:

people thank their god in times of triumph, so then why don't they blame him in times of incredible hardship and tragedy?

This is not a thread intended to mock any religion or belief system, I just want to understand the thinking here.

ActionJack

I always ask this question. I don't mean to hijack your thread and turn it into one of mocking religion as you clearly are trying to prevent. With that being said i will tell you this. Don't hold your breath waiting for any answer that makes any kind of sense.

Zoso

seems like people need god for hope in a tough time but agree when things are good it's kinda the opposite.

whgarrett

The first thing that comes to mind..... it would be juvenile. But, people do blame God for a lot of things that go wrong in life. Most people who don't believe or have a hard time believing use that very excuse to doubt a higher form of existence. "How could it let this happen?" "Where is the justice?" I find that thanking "God" for positive things confirms that I am not the end all be all out there. That there is something bigger that I want to be apart of and closer to. It helps me to be humble. When things go "wrong" I tend to believe their is a much bigger picture unable to be visualized by my human perspective. Why would I ever be able to understand the intentions of an entity that so far surpasses my intelligence. I don't know really. Does a dog who has been hit by a car know that you are there to help it? Sometimes maybe. But alot of times the dog is scared and confused and may actually bite you. It cannot begin to understand your intentions.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

whgarrett wrote:

The first thing that comes to mind..... it would be juvenile. But, people do blame God for a lot of things that go wrong in life. Most people who don't believe or have a hard time believing use that very excuse to doubt a higher form of existence. "How could it let this happen?" "Where is the justice?" I find that thanking "God" for positive things confirms that I am not the end all be all out there. That there is something bigger that I want to be apart of and closer to. It helps me to be humble. When things go "wrong" I tend to believe their is a much bigger picture unable to be visualized by my human perspective. Why would I ever be able to understand the intentions of an entity that so far surpasses my intelligence. I don't know really. Does a dog who has been hit by a car know that you are there to help it? Sometimes maybe. But alot of times the dog is scared and confused and may actually bite you. It cannot begin to understand your intentions.

thanks for the response. I'm agnostic, personally. Just speaking for myself, I don't think that I use "how could a just god let this horrible thing happen?" as an excuse not to believe. When I was a believer, I didn't think that god controlled anything. he created us and that was it, the rest was left up to us, all he could do was guide us and hope for the best.

so that's my question: if people don't believe he has any influence on events, why do people thank him for "watching over them" and helping them achieve certain things. I've never seen a football player, for example, give the finger to the heavens when he drops a touchdown pass.

if it's juvenile to blame him for things, why is it not juvenile to thank him for things?

whgarrett

I cringe when I see the athletes giving praise to their god when they achieve an accomplishment, but I shouldn't. Giving thanks to someone else for your accomplishments helps to alleviate your "self". I believe that selflessness is the true path to happiness. Of course some may think that a touchdown hardly warrants any praise whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. Who am i to judge right. I don't know.

Drowned Out

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I've never seen a football player, for example, give the finger to the heavens when he drops a touchdown pass.

That would be awesome.

brianlux

Drowned Out wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I've never seen a football player, for example, give the finger to the heavens when he drops a touchdown pass.

That would be awesome.

Or God giving the finger to someone...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc2JBtrPpIk

pandora

I liken it to parents...

How does one interact with them? Does one thank them for all the good things
they have done and still do?

Does one blame them? or understand instead?
I understand. God understands.

I feel one who lives with God in their heart there is no blame only appreciation,
gratefulness. It is the purest love and trust.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

I liken it to parents...

How does one interact with them? Does one thank them for all the good things
they have done and still do?

Does one blame them? or understand instead?
I understand. God understands.

I feel one who lives with God in their heart there is no blame only appreciation,
gratefulness. It is the purest love and trust.

many people have blame and disgust in their hearts for their parents. many rightfully so. but I'm talking about people who believe god has a hand in their day to day lives. if he controls all things, then why only thank him when things are good? why not be pissed at him when things go to shit?

I'm not referring to people who believe god has no "control" over our daily lives.

mickeyrat

I think everyone can agree that humans have "freewill" and certainly acts such as those of last week are exclusively within the scope of human freewill.

So I think its more giving credit or thanks for the positives as opposed to blaming when freewill exerts itself.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

mickeyrat wrote:

I think everyone can agree that humans have "freewill" and certainly acts such as those of last week are exclusively within the scope of human freewill.

So I think its more giving credit or thanks for the positives as opposed to blaming when freewill exerts itself.

ok, so if we have free will, what are they thanking him for? (again, not argumentative in nature, just trying to understand)

also, does everyone believe we have free will? if so, then what does it mean when people say "god's plan"?

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

I liken it to parents...

How does one interact with them? Does one thank them for all the good things
they have done and still do?

Does one blame them? or understand instead?
I understand. God understands.

I feel one who lives with God in their heart there is no blame only appreciation,
gratefulness. It is the purest love and trust.

many people have blame and disgust in their hearts for their parents. many rightfully so. but I'm talking about people who believe god has a hand in their day to day lives. if he controls all things, then why only thank him when things are good? why not be pissed at him when things go to shit?

I'm not referring to people who believe god has no "control" over our daily lives.

Anyone who knows God knows there is control by the love we feel.
There is a hand as far as guiding, an influence on our choices.
I also think most who know God can see the very big picture of life.
Trust plays a huge factor. Immense trust.
What looks and is terrible today will look and be very different twenty years further into life.
It's the puzzle picture of life fitting together.

I find people with God to be in general much more positive people.
They see the good that comes out of the bad. This is God's insight,
God's hope and God's love for us ... a wonderful sense of peace.

mickeyrat

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

I think everyone can agree that humans have "freewill" and certainly acts such as those of last week are exclusively within the scope of human freewill.

So I think its more giving credit or thanks for the positives as opposed to blaming when freewill exerts itself.

ok, so if we have free will, what are they thanking him for? (again, not argumentative in nature, just trying to understand)

also, does everyone believe we have free will? if so, then what does it mean when people say "god's plan"?

I think most religions at their core have the believe that God ( by whatever name) is rooted and expressed in love.

If I choose to act out of love I have aligned myself with Gods will things usually turn out well or at least my attitude about them makes it less painful to experience.
If I choose to act out of fear( most of my life, believe the root of my addiction/alcoholism) things usually end up in failure with my being highly frustrated by that.

Being agnostic , I cant say with or without certainty that God(by whatever name) exists, but there are instances in my life that tell ME there is something at work beyond the scope of my limitations.

I try to keep things a simple as I can. I do not claim to know what Gods will is in my life. I do claim That I know one small part of what it is not. For me , I'm quite sure Gods will is that I dont pick up a drink today or smoke crack, pot or otherwise use anything as I once did in my search for internal peace.

hedonist

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

why not be pissed at him when things go to shit?

Some do, Hugh...first thing that came to mind were the lyrics to APC's Judith. Many feel this way.

For me, it pretty much boils down to what you said earlier...

"he created us and that was it, the rest was left up to us, all he could do was guide us and hope for the best"

If I weren't also agnostic and still believed, that up there would be it. And still, even aside from that, it rings true - the rest left up to us.

Conscience ultimately guides us. Most of us, anyway.

mickeyrat

As to your real question, I give a shout out of thanks when I'm presented with something that breaks my thoughtline of negativity. I get to see alot of nature passing by out the truck window. When I recognize and gives thanks I feel better. ANd that helps me see things a little bit differently or least am willing to consider another point of view.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

mickeyrat wrote:

As to your real question, I give a shout out of thanks when I'm presented with something that breaks my thoughtline of negativity. I get to see alot of nature passing by out the truck window. When I recognize and gives thanks I feel better. ANd that helps me see things a little bit differently or least am willing to consider another point of view.

cool. thanks Mickey.

brianlux

I grew up in a Presbyterian church and as a kid I thought anything God-related just interfered with my weekend. Later- more in trying to fit in with friends than anything- I tried being a born again Christian. Reading Edward Abbey's One Life at a Time, Please pretty cured me of that. I became a lite believer- Now, I believe in nature and the spirit of mystery which is all things inexplicable.

During my lite believer stage, when things in my life were really in turmoil, I went outside one time and looked up into the sky and cursed God. My old tapes made me recoil for a moment but then suddenly this felt like the very best thing I could do. If there was a God and God was allowing these shitty things to happen to me- things that I had no control over that were making my life nearly impossible- why not be honest about my feelings? I looked up again and shook my head and let out a beastly roar and shook my fist and yelled, "It's not fair!" I think that's when things started to get better.

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

I grew up in a Presbyterian church and as a kid I thought anything God-related just interfered with my weekend. Later- more in trying to fit in with friends than anything- I tried being a born again Christian. Reading Edward Abbey's One Life at a Time, Please pretty cured me of that. I became a lite believer- Now, I believe in nature and the spirit of mystery which is all things inexplicable.

During my lite believer stage, when things in my life were really in turmoil, I went outside one time and looked up into the sky and cursed God. My old tapes made me recoil for a moment but then suddenly this felt like the very best thing I could do. If there was a God and God was allowing these shitty things to happen to me- things that I had no control over that were making my life nearly impossible- why not be honest about my feelings? I looked up again and shook my head and let out a beastly roar and shook my fist and yelled, "It's not fair!" I think that's when things started to get better.[/quote]


and was that cause you started to take more responsibility for your life and how you were gonna live it?

brianlux

catefrances wrote:

brianlux wrote:

I grew up in a Presbyterian church and as a kid I thought anything God-related just interfered with my weekend. Later- more in trying to fit in with friends than anything- I tried being a born again Christian. Reading Edward Abbey's One Life at a Time, Please pretty cured me of that. I became a lite believer- Now, I believe in nature and the spirit of mystery which is all things inexplicable.

During my lite believer stage, when things in my life were really in turmoil, I went outside one time and looked up into the sky and cursed God. My old tapes made me recoil for a moment but then suddenly this felt like the very best thing I could do. If there was a God and God was allowing these shitty things to happen to me- things that I had no control over that were making my life nearly impossible- why not be honest about my feelings? I looked up again and shook my head and let out a beastly roar and shook my fist and yelled, "It's not fair!" I think that's when things started to get better.[/quote]


and was that cause you started to take more responsibility for your life and how you were gonna live it?

Yes and no. I think it was because I began to realize that whether or not some thing out there was allowing things to happen, that what I could control was how I reacted to things and what I thought about them. I might not have been able to stop or change how I felt, but I could be the perpetrator of my own actions. So I guess you could say I took responsibility for how I responded to what happened even if I wasn't responsible for some of the things that happened.

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

Yes and no. I think it was because I began to realize that whether or not some thing out there was allowing things to happen, that what I could control was how I reacted to things and what I thought about them. I might not have been able to stop or change how I felt, but I could be the perpetrator of my own actions. So I guess you could say I took responsibility for how I responded to what happened even if I wasn't responsible for some of the things that happened.

thats what i think the parameters of free will are. the ONLY thing we have free will over is how we react to what is happening around us. we choose to act how we act and arent responsible for the catalyst that made us act... we are responsible only for our reaction.

markin ball

mickeyrat wrote:

I think everyone can agree that humans have "freewill" and certainly acts such as those of last week are exclusively within the scope of human freewill.

So I think its more giving credit or thanks for the positives as opposed to blaming when freewill exerts itself.

Human "freewill" is a massively debated topic even without considering things like "God's plans". Just sayin'.

know1

Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

badbrains

I'm a Muslim and I got to be honest here, it sure is getting harder and harder to keep believing in any religion. With all the world going to shit (don't mean to be a downer) I keep finding myself asking,"where's god, and what's he doing that he's so busy that he can't fix what's wrong with us?" I know that if I created something with life, I sure as hell wouldnt turn my back on them and let them go to the devil. No pun intended. But that's just my thinking.

Oh and merry Xmas to all my Christian pearl jam family!

Hugh Freaking Dillon

know1 wrote:

Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

ok, so what's the bigger picture of Newtown or Columbine or Katrina or....?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

badbrains wrote:

I'm a Muslim and I got to be honest here, it sure is getting harder and harder to keep believing in any religion. With all the world going to shit (don't mean to be a downer) I keep finding myself asking,"where's god, and what's he doing that he's so busy that he can't fix what's wrong with us?" I know that if I created something with life, I sure as hell wouldnt turn my back on them and let them go to the devil. No pun intended. But that's just my thinking.

Oh and merry Xmas to all my Christian pearl jam family!

my 6 year old is already starting to not talk to me sometimes. And sometimes I just give up trying, depending on the day. So I can see someone who is the parent of a disturbed child not knowing the full extent of their mental illness, simple for lack of communication, and thinking "he's just a brooding teenager, no different than anyone else's kid". Taking the kid to a shooting range, well, in 99.9999999% of cases that probably would have been harmless.

pandora

Let's not discount... evil...ution

The bigger picture of all the tragedies is all the good and love
that comes from them.

When one believes in everlasting life we know when life is lost here
it is not lost.
Some even believe we choose how we die before we come here.
We choose for the lessons of others. We are all connected and connected to God.
Past present future is one time simultaneously. When one sees reality there
it answers many questions.

know1

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

know1 wrote:

Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

ok, so what's the bigger picture of Newtown or Columbine or Katrina or....?

Eternity

Hugh Freaking Dillon

know1 wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

know1 wrote:

Tragedy and sadness are human-made conventions and are the result of our inability to see the bigger picture. I think people should be thankful in all situations.

ok, so what's the bigger picture of Newtown or Columbine or Katrina or....?

Eternity

that's not even an answer.

catefrances

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

that's not even an answer.

theism requires no real answers... just faith. and as we know faith requires no real answers except those that we feel.. and what we feel is hardly objective.

musicismylife78

I think this is a question everyone grapples with. Why do bad things happen? Why do bad things happen to good people? This isnt just a question that troubles theists. Its a universal questioning.

Doubt and questioning are bedrocks of faith and all religions. Doubt is a fundamental part of it. Abraham doubted. And Job asked the very question, why God?

The movie Tree of Life did an excellent job of trying to formulate a reason why God allows tragedy and suffering and what the purpose of our time on earth is. My beliefs allign with those put forward in the film.

I think the nature of tragedy and suffering is you probably arent telling your friends or neighbors about it. Whereas, if you win the lottery, or you buy a new car, or get a promotion thats something you will shout from the rooftops. I think religious people do blame God. And ask Why. Why me? All that. As I said, thats a fundamental part of any religion. But i think alot of relgious or spiritual people feel things have a purpose, a point, a reason. So things that go wrong, or bad, or horrible in our lives, are seen as a test, a hurdle, some sort of obstacle put there by God for a reason we dont yet understand.

I see Gods handprint in everything that occurs. There is some purpose behind it. Some meaning.

I also think religious people have views on why tragedy and violence and all that occurs, which in turns informs their feelings on who they blame for it all. Some ideas ive seen tossed around are that God has a plan, everything happens for a reason, that suffering and violence exist because it makes us appreciate life, that suffering and violence are in existance because they force us to become who we really are.

For me, im spiritual, and have long wondered about all this. When things go wrong in my life ive wondered about all this as well.