Can we get to the root of crime? Can it be addressed?

24

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,775
    Good thread and good questions. I guess it depends on what you read as to whether crime is up or down. It's hard to know what sources on this are accurate. As for the root of crime I've heard different theories such as

    A) It's genetic
    B) It's learned behavior
    C) It occurs when there is a lack of resources
    D) A combination of those factors
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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    comebackgirl wrote:
    This is so true. I think there are the true sociopaths, people who have no empathy and for others and inflict repetitive and very gruesome injury to others, sometimes for the pure enjoyment (serial killers, sadistic rapists, etc). Others have a narcissistic need for revenge, as we often see with mass murderers. Others commit crime mostly because of socialization and opportunity. The factors that address one type of crime probably won't be sufficient for addressing others. It's so multi-faceted.
    ...
    That's the problem... It's like a witch's brew of who shoots up the place and who lets things slide and moves on.
    Example: Let's say there are tests that can tell which high school kid is most likely to be psychotic base on brain activity or something. What do we do?
    Treat him like a ticking bomb and treat him with drugs? What if he hasn't done anything?
    ...
    It's like the Aurora case... the psycologist detected a disposition of violence and notified the police... but, what can **and SHOULD** the police do? Sure, after the fact it is easy for people to say all the warning signs were there, but should James Holmes been treated like a criminal... when he did nothing illegal prior to those murders? He acquired the guns and ammo legally... what can the police do? If they have to put a cop on him... doesn't that mean they have to put a cop on every person who might commit a crime?
    It is a minefield, legally and morally.
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  • comebackgirl
    comebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    Cosmo wrote:
    comebackgirl wrote:
    This is so true. I think there are the true sociopaths, people who have no empathy and for others and inflict repetitive and very gruesome injury to others, sometimes for the pure enjoyment (serial killers, sadistic rapists, etc). Others have a narcissistic need for revenge, as we often see with mass murderers. Others commit crime mostly because of socialization and opportunity. The factors that address one type of crime probably won't be sufficient for addressing others. It's so multi-faceted.
    ...
    That's the problem... It's like a witch's brew of who shoots up the place and who lets things slide and moves on.
    Example: Let's say there are tests that can tell which high school kid is most likely to be psychotic base on brain activity or something. What do we do?
    Treat him like a ticking bomb and treat him with drugs? What if he hasn't done anything?
    ...
    It's like the Aurora case... the psycologist detected a disposition of violence and notified the police... but, what can **and SHOULD** the police do? Sure, after the fact it is easy for people to say all the warning signs were there, but should James Holmes been treated like a criminal... when he did nothing illegal prior to those murders? He acquired the guns and ammo legally... what can the police do? If they have to put a cop on him... doesn't that mean they have to put a cop on every person who might commit a crime?
    It is a minefield, legally and morally.
    That's what makes it so complicated. We can't punish people for what they *might* do, but for what they actually do. Sure, we can and should conduct thorough risk assessments, but they will only take us so far, and so much of the assessment relies on information from the patient and/or family (i.e. access to and possession of weapons, substance use). It's not uncommon for people who are psychotic to experience delusions about persecution and command hallucinations. Those are certainly risk factors, but the large majority of people experiencing psychosis will never be violent. We can involuntarily hospitalize if someone is a danger to themselves or others, but that's a fine line, and hospitalization will be brief. A lot of people are hospitalized, stabilized, discharged, don't follow up on aftercare (and can't be forced to) and then stop meds and the process resumes. I am particularly interested in finding out the details of the Colorado case. I posted this article elsewhere, but think it's relevant to the topic:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/
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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    I think in large part is the parenting factor, the perpetuating cycle. live the life, teach the life. of COURSE not all criminals are of a lower socio-economic status, but I would assume (I don't know the stats) that it would be overwhelmingly in favour of the poorer sect. it is well known in Manitoba at least, that there is an overwhelming majority of Aboriginals in our prisons. "over-represented" as the Aboriginal leaders say.

    I stole as a teen for a while, but that was more out of attention and peer pressure. It wasn't major stuff (cigarettes, cassettes, candy, magazines, etc). And it didn't last long.

    Our governments CLAIM to care about the less fortunate, but what are they really doing for them? building a nice playground in a shit area isn't going to do anything unless the groundwork has been laid, with people in the community already there with the interest in turning things around. most of those playgrounds just end up as drug dealing spots and covered in graffiti.
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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    comebackgirl wrote:
    We can't punish people for what they *might* do, but for what they actually do.

    that's why I'm still looking for those damn pre-cogs. we could use some of those.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    Our governments CLAIM to care about the less fortunate, but what are they really doing for them?

    Not enough though it would seem that what they could can have a positive impact. An example - small but nevertheless very important:

    "Commentators have suggested that declines of up to 40% in domestic violence incidents reported in public surveys may be due to the provision of better housing and other services that provide women with a realistic alternative to their relationships, the improved economic and educational status of women, and demographic trends"http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/19/falling-murder-rate-domestic-violence

    http://www.nasams.org/DMS/Documents/119 ... olence.pdf (this is the full study)
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    I'm being a bit naughty at work and trawling through various studies.

    This has some quite interesting points (though the full study is 30+ pages!). http://ideas.repec.org/p/mib/wpaper/63.html#related
    There are plenty of links to other studies/papers in the 'Reference' and 'Citations' part. I guess most of these are a bit too 'academic' and lengthy to serve as reference for the purpose of a debate on a forum!
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    my take on criminals/crime.....
    it all starts with the brain,this topic can and should easly begain with the brain.
    some people are criminals right out of the gate even if they don't realize it right away,there is a part od their brain the functions differently than others(risk takers,lack of emotion,steal,kill)with no remorse at all some people commit crimes just for the rush or the thrill of doing it,a friend of mine did 4 years in chino prison for burglery(high end) he very good with alarms and security systems and would break into factorys and wearhouses just for the thrill of getting away with it and he never needed the money he grew up in simi wealthy family, he never got caught for what he called "capers" but he did get ratted out.
    another guy named "Dog" loved fighting and hurting people it's just who dog was and it diden't matter who they were.. bikers,self proclaimed tuff guys even cops but in the end thats what killed him.
    point is that there was a differance in the way their brains functioned..how they processed guilt or remorse and I believe if that kind of person is faced with poverty they do what they have to without feeling any regreat.
    I know that's not the only reason for crime but it is a situation that needs to be looked at as well as good people doing dumb things.

    Godfather.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/07/justice/t ... ?hpt=ju_c1

    just happened to run across this.


    Godfather.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    this is some great reading.
    http://www.livescience.com/13083-crimin ... thics.html

    The latest neuroscience research is presenting intriguing evidence that the brains of certain kinds of criminals are different from those of the rest of the population.

    While these findings could improve our understanding of criminal behavior, they also raise moral quandaries about whether and how society should use this knowledge to combat crime.


    Godfather.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    i would say these are the primary reasons for crime:

    ignorance
    oppression
    prosperity gap
    entitlement
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,246
    Great thread and idea for all of our thoughts on this subject. Well they are many factors as to the root cases to crime here in America and around the world.

    I would say:

    Television; how children become desensitized with the 1000's of murders seen on TV (video games involving killings)

    Socio-economic destitution

    Lack of recreational activities for our teens

    Lack of parental guidance who may tend to join gangs for attention and to be part of something unique.

    To some crime is easy from selling drugs to bank robbery to stealing gas.

    I hope someday crime can come to an end or at least come to a blip on our radar screen.

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  • comebackgirl
    comebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    Godfather. wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/07/justice/texas-execution/index.html?hpt=ju_c1

    just happened to run across this.


    Godfather.
    I remember reading that Martin Bryant, who killed 35 people in Australia had an IQ of 66, putting him in the mild mental retardation range. Some reports said he may have been on the autism spectrum.

    Godfather. wrote:
    this is some great reading.
    http://www.livescience.com/13083-crimin ... thics.html

    The latest neuroscience research is presenting intriguing evidence that the brains of certain kinds of criminals are different from those of the rest of the population.

    While these findings could improve our understanding of criminal behavior, they also raise moral quandaries about whether and how society should use this knowledge to combat crime.


    Godfather.
    This article is really interesting. The question for me is were these people born with different neurology, or did they experience something in their environment (early severe trauma) that impacted a predisposition. I would love to see more research on that. Thank you for sharing this.
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  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Godfather. wrote:
    this is some great reading.
    http://www.livescience.com/13083-crimin ... thics.html

    The latest neuroscience research is presenting intriguing evidence that the brains of certain kinds of criminals are different from those of the rest of the population.

    While these findings could improve our understanding of criminal behavior, they also raise moral quandaries about whether and how society should use this knowledge to combat crime.


    Godfather.

    Very cool article, thanks for sharing.
    And G, you roll with a tough group dude! :shock: :)
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Godfather. wrote:
    this is some great reading.
    http://www.livescience.com/13083-crimin ... thics.html

    The latest neuroscience research is presenting intriguing evidence that the brains of certain kinds of criminals are different from those of the rest of the population.

    While these findings could improve our understanding of criminal behavior, they also raise moral quandaries about whether and how society should use this knowledge to combat crime.


    Godfather.

    There is more and more talk about this. I remember my grandmother saying that one of her brothers' was 'born bad' (compared to the 6 siblings). Could it be the 'old' way of saying this?

    But a you say G. - how would society use this knowledge. Would this person be 'branded' from the start and 'outcast' or would help be there (assuming this person would want help - if not, would it be manadatory) Scary thought just there...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,389
    ComeToTX wrote:
    In addition, the SPLC has documented a powerful resurgence of the antigovernment “Patriot” movement, which in the 1990s led to a string of domestic terrorist plots, including the Oklahoma City bombing. The number of Patriot groups, including armed militias, grew by 755 percent in the first three years of the Obama administration – from 149 at the end of 2008 to 1,274 in 2011.
    I looked at the criteria of what is considered the Patriot movement and it is very vast. It ranges from armed militias to someone who supports Ron Paul or is a quasi-libertarian. A good number of posters on this board along with myself fall under the Patriot movement based on that criteria.

    I would be more interested to see the rise in armed militias only. Or better yet, how about the rise in hate groups.
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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Strong comments in this thread.

    There will always be an element of crime- people have a natural disposition to violence. Go to the pub on Saturday and watch men and women cheer MMA or watch the heads turn as people drive by an accident scene as support for this notion. As has already been mentioned, there will always be criminals (the angered and jealous husband, the drug dealer, the sociopath, etc.). Motivation to commit a crime might be simple for some and highly complex for others.

    Regardless, I think we should try to figure out remedies. As radical as I might sound and as much as a bandaid that it might be, I believe in severe penalties attached to violent criminals. Pandora offered a brutal piece on reoffending. I don't think these people should have had the chance to reoffend. Simple as that. You raped a woman at knifepoint... go rot.

    On the proactive side- and not so much a bandaid- we need to invest heavily in our youth. Schools need to be great, teachers need to be great, and youth programming needs to be kicked up a couple of notches (to say the least). Kids need access to warm, caring and influential adults- especially when they don''t have access to such in their own homes. They also need access to programming when their family's resources have typically prevented them from participation. When children are at their most influential age, we have our best chance to make a positive and lasting impact.

    If it were up to me, less money feeding rapists, fewer counselling sessions for murderers, and no isolation cells and cable television for pedophiles. More money given to schools, teachers, after school programs and (sadly) intensive therapy sessions for those moments when a child has been violated (before we lose them).

    The current system has us treating the root of evil 'after the fact' (incarceration and rehabilitation). Why wait to extend our efforts?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    redrock wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    this is some great reading.
    http://www.livescience.com/13083-crimin ... thics.html

    The latest neuroscience research is presenting intriguing evidence that the brains of certain kinds of criminals are different from those of the rest of the population.

    While these findings could improve our understanding of criminal behavior, they also raise moral quandaries about whether and how society should use this knowledge to combat crime.


    Godfather.

    There is more and more talk about this. I remember my grandmother saying that one of her brothers' was 'born bad' (compared to the 6 siblings). Could it be the 'old' way of saying this?

    But a you say G. - how would society use this knowledge. Would this person be 'branded' from the start and 'outcast' or would help be there (assuming this person would want help - if not, would it be manadatory) Scary thought just there...

    I'm thinking it's the beginning of a slow start, the brain is a very dellicate and powerful thing and resurch is really hard to do but what has been discovered is steps in the right direction to help or possibly cure some mental illness's or even criminal behaivior....not really yet but I believe it will happen.

    Godfather.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    this is some great reading.
    http://www.livescience.com/13083-crimin ... thics.html

    The latest neuroscience research is presenting intriguing evidence that the brains of certain kinds of criminals are different from those of the rest of the population.

    While these findings could improve our understanding of criminal behavior, they also raise moral quandaries about whether and how society should use this knowledge to combat crime.


    Godfather.

    Very cool article, thanks for sharing.
    And G, you roll with a tough group dude! :shock: :)

    not so much anymore....my wife wont let me :lol:

    Godfather.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    Strong comments in this thread.

    There will always be an element of crime- people have a natural disposition to violence. Go to the pub on Saturday and watch men and women cheer MMA or watch the heads turn as people drive by an accident scene as support for this notion. As has already been mentioned, there will always be criminals (the angered and jealous husband, the drug dealer, the sociopath, etc.). Motivation to commit a crime might be simple for some and highly complex for others.

    Regardless, I think we should try to figure out remedies. As radical as I might sound and as much as a bandaid that it might be, I believe in severe penalties attached to violent criminals. Pandora offered a brutal piece on reoffending. I don't think these people should have had the chance to reoffend. Simple as that. You raped a woman at knifepoint... go rot.

    On the proactive side- and not so much a bandaid- we need to invest heavily in our youth. Schools need to be great, teachers need to be great, and youth programming needs to be kicked up a couple of notches (to say the least). Kids need access to warm, caring and influential adults- especially when they don''t have access to such in their own homes. They also need access to programming when their family's resources have typically prevented them from participation. When children are at their most influential age, we have our best chance to make a positive and lasting impact.

    If it were up to me, less money feeding rapists, fewer counselling sessions for murderers, and no isolation cells and cable television for pedophiles. More money given to schools, teachers, after school programs and (sadly) intensive therapy sessions for those moments when a child has been violated (before we lose them).

    The current system has us treating the root of evil 'after the fact' (incarceration and rehabilitation). Why wait to extend our efforts?
    Strong comments here too, most of which I agree with. Well-said!

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