Dec 7. A Date That Will Live In Infamy
Comments
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War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
I don't know. If not a single life was lost it would still be important. Our nation was attacked by another nation.Cosmo wrote:War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.
70,000 people die every day.. We all die. Nothing new.0 -
God bless all World War Two veterans. We lose more and more every year...Bristow, VA (5/13/10)0
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...Gob wrote:
I don't know. If not a single life was lost it would still be important. Our nation was attacked by another nation.Cosmo wrote:War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.
70,000 people die every day.. We all die. Nothing new.
Agreed. But, in this day of rememberance... we should remember the lives lost that day, not the underlying political factors.Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
Idris wrote:patrickredeyes wrote:
Today is a day to remember those at Pearl no doubt. Remember all vets indeed.mickeyrat wrote:
Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.
It is a very important day, that's why it's important to figure out and know to the best of our ability, what the Truth is.
It matters very much so if America knew about the impending attack or not and based on the fact that they shot a Japanese sub the same day of. well....Anyway,
The best way to respect the fallen, is to make sure we know how they fell, and why. But history shows us that we tend to make the same bad choices and decisions, it keeps on happening over and over, the cyclical nature of our History.
People want to remember, remember this, most wars can be avoided, maybe the best way to respect the fallen, is to stop supporting the Eco system of ignorance that allows such destruction and support for it to occur.
Want to Respect the fallen and honor our/the soldiers both alive and also the ones long gone from this earth? Demand your/our government to stop all it's current wars, it's current support for brutal regimes and to stop it's destruction of the rest of the world. Military industrial complex for example.
That's how you honor war vets, by not putting their children, and grandchildren and great grandchildren in wars that need to be.
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"regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge"? Mr MickeyRat, Motives and knowledge are to the core, important.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war
-Plato
What is important TODAY is that we remember those that were lost at Pearl. Tomorrow we can discuss who and what and where.
There is a time for everything and today we remember. And if you know a vet that served thank them. In a few yrs there won't be anymore WWII vets alive so thank the ones that are still alive b4 it's too late. We owe that to them.Post edited by patrickredeyes on0 -
If we disregard the underlying political factors, is it safe to say we should take a day to remember the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost when Hiroshima was bombed?Cosmo wrote:
...Gob wrote:
I don't know. If not a single life was lost it would still be important. Our nation was attacked by another nation.Cosmo wrote:War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.
70,000 people die every day.. We all die. Nothing new.
Agreed. But, in this day of rememberance... we should remember the lives lost that day, not the underlying political factors.
just for thought.. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay a little respect today.0 -
If we disregard the underlying political factors, is it safe to say we should take a day to remember the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost when Hiroshima was bombed?Gob wrote:Agreed. But, in this day of rememberance... we should remember the lives lost that day, not the underlying political factors.
just for thought..[/quote]
I believe there is a day to remember Hiroshima it's August 6th.0 -
I do agree, however your post about the sub is largely meaningless without a timeline of when it was sunk. When exactly or thereabouts was this sub shot at? I may and could be wrong, I didnt see that reported in the linked article. Was it BEFORE the first torpedo left the belly of a Japanese plane?Idris wrote:patrickredeyes wrote:
Today is a day to remember those at Pearl no doubt. Remember all vets indeed.mickeyrat wrote:
Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.
It is a very important day, that's why it's important to figure out and know to the best of our ability, what the Truth is.
It matters very much so if America knew about the impending attack or not and based on the fact that they shot a Japanese sub the same day of. well....Anyway,
The best way to respect the fallen, is to make sure we know how they fell, and why. But history shows us that we tend to make the same bad choices and decisions, it keeps on happening over and over, the cyclical nature of our History.
People want to remember, remember this, most wars can be avoided, maybe the best way to respect the fallen, is to stop supporting the Eco system of ignorance that allows such destruction and support for it to occur.
Want to Respect the fallen and honor our/the soldiers both alive and also the ones long gone from this earth? Demand your/our government to stop all it's current wars, it's current support for brutal regimes and to stop it's destruction of the rest of the world. Military industrial complex for example.
That's how you honor war vets, by not putting their children, and grandchildren and great grandchildren in wars that need to be.
---
"regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge"? Mr MickeyRat, Motives and knowledge are to the core, important.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war
-Plato
Simple fact is at this point 70 yrs later , we'd be HARD pressed to get an accurate recollection or statement os said timing._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
If people need a day to remember, I'm fine with it. It's a way of mourning... but at some point, the time for mourning is over.patrickredeyes wrote:I believe there is a day to remember Hiroshima it's August 6th.
Three of my grandparents are dead, and to be honest, I don't remember what day the earth was positioned in it's orbit around the sun when their deaths occured. It's not important to me.. What is important to me, is they will always be a part of my life.. Everyday.
That's just me. I'm not trying to downplay this day. I'm just trying to understand why we have to designate it. Pearl Harbor or the lives lost that day will be no less important tomorrow.
If nothing more than a reminder in our busy lives, I'm ok with that.
I personally did not know any soul lost on that day and fortunately in any war and for that I am fortunate, but feel a bit detached.Post edited by LikeAnOcean on0 -
...Gob wrote:If we disregard the underlying political factors, is it safe to say we should take a day to remember the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost when Hiroshima was bombed?
just for thought.. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay a little respect today.
Yes... I absolutely believe that we, as a nation, should mourn for the lives lost by our hands on August, 6th.
No excuses... no justification argued... no rationale offered... simply rememberance of the lives lost.Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
patrickredeyes wrote:What is important TODAY is that we remember those that were lost at Pearl. Tomorrow we can discuss who and what and where.
There is a time for everything and today we remember. And if you know a vet that served thank them. In a few yrs there won't be anymore WWII vets alive so thank the ones that are still alive b4 it's too late. We owe that to them.
We may not be here tomorrow my friend, the time is now. Don't you see, we will also be replaced one day, and our kids will also say "Not today, tomorrow" and the cycle goes on and on. That is the system of ignorance.
I'm here talking about it, and you would rather just remember, and that is fine. Your choice,
I don't have all the answers to Pearl Harbor or 9/11 and whatever else, but the best time to speak about those things are on those day's. When it's in the news, people are talking and REMEMBERING.
Because let's face it, we live in a disposable society, come tomorrow, and most of us will be onto something else. Until this date comes by next year and we say the same thing, "today is for remembering, tomorrow is for discussion".
But if that's how you feel in your heart, then do as you please. That's life.0 -
Agree 100%.Idris wrote:patrickredeyes wrote:What is important TODAY is that we remember those that were lost at Pearl. Tomorrow we can discuss who and what and where.
There is a time for everything and today we remember. And if you know a vet that served thank them. In a few yrs there won't be anymore WWII vets alive so thank the ones that are still alive b4 it's too late. We owe that to them.
We may not be here tomorrow my friend, the time is now. Don't you see, we will also be replaced one day, and our kids will also say "Not today, tomorrow" and the cycle goes on and on. That is the system of ignorance.
I'm here talking about it, and you would rather just remember, and that is fine. Your choice,
I don't have all the answers to Pearl Harbor or 9/11 and whatever else, but the best time to speak about those things are on those day's. When it's in the news, people are talking and REMEMBERING.
Because let's face it, we live in a disposable society, come tomorrow, and most of us will be onto something else. Until this date comes by next year and we say the same thing, "today is for remembering, tomorrow is for discussion".
But if that's how you feel in your heart, then do as you please. That's life.
If I needed to pick a day to remember my grandpa's death, I would be ashamed of myself.. I honestly don't remember what day he died, but he will always be a part of me.. EVERYDAY.
If people need to reminds themselves of something this important by logging it on a calendar, then so be it.0 -
Gob wrote:
Three of my grandparents are dead, and to be honest, I don't remember what day the earth was positioned in it's orbit around the sun when their deaths occured. It's not important to me.. What is important to me, is they will always be a part of my life.. Everyday.
That's just me. I'm not trying to downplay this day. I'm just trying to understand why we have to designate it. Pearl Harbor or the lives lost that day will be no less important tomorrow.
If nothing more than a reminder in our busy lives, I'm ok with that.
I'm not gonna get into a pissing match but all of my grandparents are dead. Two of them were dead b4 I was born. The other two I knew for a while and they both served in WWII. I grew up hearing stories and when I got older I started asking questions. About 5 yrs ago b4 my last grandfather died I told him I would never forget what his generation did during WWII. He replied don't forget but also don't repeat what we went threw. 2morrow will be another day of course. Myself I don't forget certain days and stories I heard. These guys came home from the war and just went on with their lives. Many not telling their families what they saw and went threw. They came home and went back to work and made a life for themselves. They didn't ask for anything. Pretty fucking amazing if you ask me. So as a way to honor them I remember cause in a few yrs they will all be gone. And all we will have is books or whatever stories some of us heard from a family member. I also respect what yr saying Gob.0 -
mickeyrat wrote:I do agree, however your post about the sub is largely meaningless without a timeline of when it was sunk. When exactly or thereabouts was this sub shot at? I may and could be wrong, I didnt see that reported in the linked article. Was it BEFORE the first torpedo left the belly of a Japanese plane?
Simple fact is at this point 70 yrs later , we'd be HARD pressed to get an accurate recollection or statement os said timing.
Yea for sure, I'd like to see a detailed timeline and would like the British and US governments to release ALL it's records and memos/documents of the time.
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(Generally speaking here)
In 70 years from now, those that replace us may sing a similar tune about our current wars and reasons for them? Maybe? and the remembrance of it all will be relegated to propaganda history books. Like the ones used now. Accurate history is my real point.
No doubt people one day will say that those wars (our current ones) were a long time ago, and what matters are remembering the soldiers who died fighting in Iraq. I mean maybe it does not matter about lying? WMDs?, and whatever else. After all, that all just happened a handful of years ago, and we have all already stopped talking about it and moved on. Where is the outrage against Bush? Why is he not on trial for war crimes? etc.
If we held our politicians feet to the fire back then, we would not be where we are now, and if we do not hold our current leaders and politicians feet to the fire now, We will be in the same place 70 years from now.
We don't seem to demand the truth from our leaders, like with the recent Bin Ladin killing, it did not matter to many how he was killed, or whatever else. But it should matter, it matters what we do, how we do things and why we do things.Post edited by Idris on0 -
whos to say what the state of the internet will be in 70 yrs if theres one at all, but theres certain a fair amount of info floating in the ether for study, now isnt there?Idris wrote:mickeyrat wrote:I do agree, however your post about the sub is largely meaningless without a timeline of when it was sunk. When exactly or thereabouts was this sub shot at? I may and could be wrong, I didnt see that reported in the linked article. Was it BEFORE the first torpedo left the belly of a Japanese plane?
Simple fact is at this point 70 yrs later , we'd be HARD pressed to get an accurate recollection or statement os said timing.
Yea for sure, I'd like to see a detailed timeline and would like the British and US governments to release ALL it's records and memos/documents of the time.
--
(Generally speaking here)
In 70 years from now, those that replace us may sing a similar tune about our current wars and reasons for them? Maybe?
No doubt people one day will say that those wars (our current ones) were a long time ago, and what matters are remembering the soldiers who died fighting in Iraq. I mean maybe it does not matter about lying? WMDs?, and whatever else. After all, that all just happened a handful of years ago, and we have all already stopped talking about it and moved on. Where is the outrage against Bush? Why is he not on trial for war crimes? etc.
If we held our politicians feet to the fire back then, we would not be where we are now, and if we do not hold our current leaders and politicians feet to the fire now, We will be in the same place 70 years from now.
We don't seem to demand the truth from our leaders, like with the recent Bin Ladin killing, it did not matter to many how he was killed, or whatever else. But it should matter, it matters what we do, how we do things and why we do things._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
The mini-sub was sunk the very morning of the attack......and slowly passed up the chain of command on a Sunday morning. The Hawaiian islands are the most geographically isolated location on the planet. What was a Japanese mini-sub doing there in the first place? A vessel that was not capable of crossing the Pacific from Japan to Hawaii unaided. It took the Japanese fleet at least four days to move to their launch location for the attack...so they were in a war-footing prior to the 7th...and the US started the war by attacking a mini-sub in its territorial waters? Some people really need to get a grip.....Thank you to any who served....your sacrifice is remembered.All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.0
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tybird wrote:The mini-sub was sunk the very morning of the attack......and slowly passed up the chain of command on a Sunday morning. The Hawaiian islands are the most geographically isolated location on the planet. What was a Japanese mini-sub doing there in the first place? A vessel that was not capable of crossing the Pacific from Japan to Hawaii unaided. It took the Japanese fleet at least four days to move to their launch location for the attack...so they were in a war-footing prior to the 7th...and the US started the war by attacking a mini-sub in its territorial waters? Some people really need to get a grip.....Thank you to any who served....your sacrifice is remembered.
Ad nauseam..Read the entire thread -properly-. Then read over your post.0 -
You need to read several history books properly.Idris wrote:tybird wrote:The mini-sub was sunk the very morning of the attack......and slowly passed up the chain of command on a Sunday morning. The Hawaiian islands are the most geographically isolated location on the planet. What was a Japanese mini-sub doing there in the first place? A vessel that was not capable of crossing the Pacific from Japan to Hawaii unaided. It took the Japanese fleet at least four days to move to their launch location for the attack...so they were in a war-footing prior to the 7th...and the US started the war by attacking a mini-sub in its territorial waters? Some people really need to get a grip.....Thank you to any who served....your sacrifice is remembered.
Ad nauseam..Read the entire thread -properly-. Then read over your post.All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.0 -
those ships were old, musty and outdated. they gave the US no advantage over japan's modern navy.Jason P wrote:
If they did have reasonable belief of an attack and had the intent to use this as an excuse to enter the war, I find it hard to believe they were willing to risk the majority of the entire Pacific fleet. I do find it plausible that there were reports and hints of an attack out there prior via intelligence, but either that information was found to be not credible or lost in bureaucracy and discovered in hindsight.ed243421 wrote:do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?
If it was a conspiracy, they would have at least moved the fleet out of the harbor. It's not a very good strategy to pick a fight with Japan by sacrificing what you need to defeat Japan.0 -
tybird wrote:
You need to read several history books properly.Idris wrote:tybird wrote:The mini-sub was sunk the very morning of the attack......and slowly passed up the chain of command on a Sunday morning. The Hawaiian islands are the most geographically isolated location on the planet. What was a Japanese mini-sub doing there in the first place? A vessel that was not capable of crossing the Pacific from Japan to Hawaii unaided. It took the Japanese fleet at least four days to move to their launch location for the attack...so they were in a war-footing prior to the 7th...and the US started the war by attacking a mini-sub in its territorial waters? Some people really need to get a grip.....Thank you to any who served....your sacrifice is remembered.
Ad nauseam..Read the entire thread -properly-. Then read over your post.
Alright, if you say so,0
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