Dec 7. A Date That Will Live In Infamy

mickeyrat

Props to all who lived through this.

And R.I.P. to those who did not.

Godfather.

agreed for sure !

Godfather.

ed243421

do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?

Godfather.

http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/us/201 ... test=faces


Godfather.

Jason P

ed243421 wrote:

do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?

If they did have reasonable belief of an attack and had the intent to use this as an excuse to enter the war, I find it hard to believe they were willing to risk the majority of the entire Pacific fleet. I do find it plausible that there were reports and hints of an attack out there prior via intelligence, but either that information was found to be not credible or lost in bureaucracy and discovered in hindsight.

If it was a conspiracy, they would have at least moved the fleet out of the harbor. It's not a very good strategy to pick a fight with Japan by sacrificing what you need to defeat Japan.

ed243421

Jason P wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?

If they did have reasonable belief of an attack and had the intent to use this as an excuse to enter the war, I find it hard to believe they were willing to risk the majority of the entire Pacific fleet. I do find it plausible that there were reports and hints of an attack out there prior via intelligence, but either that information was found to be not credible or lost in bureaucracy and discovered in hindsight.

If it was a conspiracy, they would have at least moved the fleet out of the harbor. It's not a very good strategy to pick a fight with Japan by sacrificing what you need to defeat Japan.

i'll have to check, but

i think only the older battleships were there

they moved all of the newer aircraft carriers out of there shortly before the attack

Newch91

RIP to all those who lost their lives that day.

Part of the speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VqQAf74fsE

maj4e

Gordon Prange's book "At Dawn we slept" is a 40 year undertaking on this topic. It's probably the best history book I've ever read and don't let the size of the book sway you it reads fast. It wasn't so much did they know, they did know to a point. It was how serious do we take it, plus arrogance, Pearl Harbor was known as a fortress. The Atlantic war was consuming all of the resources so many decrypts didn't get through to those in Hawaii for strategic and bureaucratic reasons.

Keep in mind most Navies out there were still Battleship minded and weren't thinking of large scale naval aerial assaults. The Japanese had been fighting in China for a decade so were way ahead of us etc. etc.

Jason P

ed243421 wrote:

i'll have to check, but

i think only the older battleships were there

they moved all of the newer aircraft carriers out of there shortly before the attack

From what I've read, the Japanese strategy was focused on destroying the battleships as it was their belief that a naval war would be decided by battleships. We were very lucky that no carriers were present during the attack.

brianlux

I grew up hearing lots of stories about WWII. My father was stationed in The Solomon Islands during the war and worked as an aircraft mechanic. He's 91 years old. That generation of people who served in WWII is very old and dying off quickly. It's weird to think that before too long they'll all be gone. Where does the time go?

Jason P

brianlux wrote:

I grew up hearing lots of stories about WWII. My father was stationed in The Solomon Islands during the war and worked as an aircraft mechanic. He's 91 years old. That generation of people who served in WWII is very old and dying off quickly. It's weird to think that before too long they'll all be gone. Where does the time go?

Yeah, considering it was 70 years ago, the youngest enlisted survivor would be 88 years old.

Over Thanksgiving my dad and my uncle were recalling old stories. They were talking about a wedding and my uncle stated he didn't think he attended because he was off fighting the Koreans. It struck me as odd because the Korean war truly is the forgotten war and also made me realize that my parents are getting old ... which means I must be getting old too! :shock:

At the very least, it reminded my to treasure the time spent with loved ones.

Idris

Jason P wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?

If they did have reasonable belief of an attack and had the intent to use this as an excuse to enter the war, I find it hard to believe they were willing to risk the majority of the entire Pacific fleet. I do find it plausible that there were reports and hints of an attack out there prior via intelligence, but either that information was found to be not credible or lost in bureaucracy and discovered in hindsight.

If it was a conspiracy, they would have at least moved the fleet out of the harbor. It's not a very good strategy to pick a fight with Japan by sacrificing what you need to defeat Japan.

The Americans only needed the "Fat Man" to beat Japan. Pearl Harbor is the event America wanted and used to get more heavily into the war. It makes sense that America needed such a scene of destruction to do what it wanted to do.

But Of course the Americans had no idea about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor, Right Mr Cornell hull? Cough Cough.

The Americans fired the first shot against a Japanese sub,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2223256.stm

"A Date Which Will Live In Infamy"...indeed.

patrickredeyes

Jason P wrote:

brianlux wrote:

I grew up hearing lots of stories about WWII. My father was stationed in The Solomon Islands during the war and worked as an aircraft mechanic. He's 91 years old. That generation of people who served in WWII is very old and dying off quickly. It's weird to think that before too long they'll all be gone. Where does the time go?

Yeah, considering it was 70 years ago, the youngest enlisted survivor would be 88 years old.

Over Thanksgiving my dad and my uncle were recalling old stories. They were talking about a wedding and my uncle stated he didn't think he attended because he was off fighting the Koreans. It struck me as odd because the Korean war truly is the forgotten war and also made me realize that my parents are getting old ... which means I must be getting old too! :shock:

At the very least, it reminded my to treasure the time spent with loved ones.

And some even enlisted when they were 16 or 17 yrs old.

God bless them all past and present who served.

mikalina

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/us/2011/12/06/rare-and-unseen-pics-after-pearl-harbor/#slide=1?test=faces


Godfather.

Thanks for sharing.... RIP

mickeyrat

Idris wrote:

Jason P wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?

If they did have reasonable belief of an attack and had the intent to use this as an excuse to enter the war, I find it hard to believe they were willing to risk the majority of the entire Pacific fleet. I do find it plausible that there were reports and hints of an attack out there prior via intelligence, but either that information was found to be not credible or lost in bureaucracy and discovered in hindsight.

If it was a conspiracy, they would have at least moved the fleet out of the harbor. It's not a very good strategy to pick a fight with Japan by sacrificing what you need to defeat Japan.

The Americans only needed the "Fat Man" to beat Japan. Pearl Harbor is the event America wanted and used to get more heavily into the war. It makes sense that America needed such a scene of destruction to do what it wanted to do.

But Of course the Americans had no idea about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor, Right Mr Cornell hull? Cough Cough.

The Americans fired the first shot against a Japanese sub,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2223256.stm

"A Date Which Will Live In Infamy"...indeed.

As for the sub and "first shot to start the war" Some could reasonably argue that implementing the attack plans were the start of the war.

If not that , then the second those Japanese planes left those ships , the war began.

Besides, THAT was not the intent of this thread.

Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.

patrickredeyes

mickeyrat wrote:

Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.

Today is a day to remember those at Pearl no doubt. Remember all vets indeed.

Newch91

24 survivors return to Pearl Harbor for the first time in 70 years.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/honolulukit ... 03357.html

patrickredeyes

Newch91 wrote:

24 survivors return to Pearl Harbor for the first time in 70 years.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/honolulukit ... 03357.html

That was nice thanks for sharing.

LikeAnOcean

War is nuts.


My grandpa had to kill a man in hand to hand combat with a knife.. Apparently when the Japanese ran out of bullets they were to come at you anyways and do whatever it takes, disregarding their own lives.

Newch91

patrickredeyes wrote:

Newch91 wrote:

24 survivors return to Pearl Harbor for the first time in 70 years.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/honolulukit ... 03357.html

That was nice thanks for sharing.

You're welcome.

Idris

patrickredeyes wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.

Today is a day to remember those at Pearl no doubt. Remember all vets indeed.

It is a very important day, that's why it's important to figure out and know to the best of our ability, what the Truth is.

It matters very much so if America knew about the impending attack or not and based on the fact that they shot a Japanese sub the same day of. well....Anyway,

The best way to respect the fallen, is to make sure we know how they fell, and why. But history shows us that we tend to make the same bad choices and decisions, it keeps on happening over and over, the cyclical nature of our History.

People want to remember, remember this, most wars can be avoided, maybe the best way to respect the fallen, is to stop supporting the Eco system of ignorance that allows such destruction and support for it to occur.

Want to Respect the fallen and honor our/the soldiers both alive and also the ones long gone from this earth? Demand your/our government to stop all it's current wars, it's current support for brutal regimes and to stop it's destruction of the rest of the world. Military industrial complex for example.

That's how you honor war vets, by not putting their children, and grandchildren and great grandchildren in wars that need to be.
---
"regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge"? Mr MickeyRat, Motives and knowledge are to the core, important.

It is only the dead who have seen the end of war
-Plato

Cosmo

War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.

LikeAnOcean

Cosmo wrote:

War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.

I don't know. If not a single life was lost it would still be important. Our nation was attacked by another nation.



70,000 people die every day.. We all die. Nothing new.

Electric_Delta

God bless all World War Two veterans. We lose more and more every year...

Cosmo

Gob wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.

I don't know. If not a single life was lost it would still be important. Our nation was attacked by another nation.



70,000 people die every day.. We all die. Nothing new.

...
Agreed. But, in this day of rememberance... we should remember the lives lost that day, not the underlying political factors.

patrickredeyes

Idris wrote:

patrickredeyes wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.

Today is a day to remember those at Pearl no doubt. Remember all vets indeed.

It is a very important day, that's why it's important to figure out and know to the best of our ability, what the Truth is.

It matters very much so if America knew about the impending attack or not and based on the fact that they shot a Japanese sub the same day of. well....Anyway,

The best way to respect the fallen, is to make sure we know how they fell, and why. But history shows us that we tend to make the same bad choices and decisions, it keeps on happening over and over, the cyclical nature of our History.

People want to remember, remember this, most wars can be avoided, maybe the best way to respect the fallen, is to stop supporting the Eco system of ignorance that allows such destruction and support for it to occur.

Want to Respect the fallen and honor our/the soldiers both alive and also the ones long gone from this earth? Demand your/our government to stop all it's current wars, it's current support for brutal regimes and to stop it's destruction of the rest of the world. Military industrial complex for example.

That's how you honor war vets, by not putting their children, and grandchildren and great grandchildren in wars that need to be.
---
"regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge"? Mr MickeyRat, Motives and knowledge are to the core, important.

It is only the dead who have seen the end of war
-Plato

What is important TODAY is that we remember those that were lost at Pearl. Tomorrow we can discuss who and what and where.

There is a time for everything and today we remember. And if you know a vet that served thank them. In a few yrs there won't be anymore WWII vets alive so thank the ones that are still alive b4 it's too late. We owe that to them.

LikeAnOcean

Cosmo wrote:

Gob wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

War or not... lives were lost.
That is what's important.

I don't know. If not a single life was lost it would still be important. Our nation was attacked by another nation.



70,000 people die every day.. We all die. Nothing new.

...
Agreed. But, in this day of rememberance... we should remember the lives lost that day, not the underlying political factors.

If we disregard the underlying political factors, is it safe to say we should take a day to remember the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost when Hiroshima was bombed?

just for thought.. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay a little respect today.

patrickredeyes

Gob wrote:

Agreed. But, in this day of rememberance... we should remember the lives lost that day, not the underlying political factors.

If we disregard the underlying political factors, is it safe to say we should take a day to remember the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost when Hiroshima was bombed?

just for thought..[/quote]

I believe there is a day to remember Hiroshima it's August 6th.

mickeyrat

Idris wrote:

patrickredeyes wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

Call it what you will, this WAS and IS an important day/date in the history of my country, regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge.

Today is a day to remember those at Pearl no doubt. Remember all vets indeed.

It is a very important day, that's why it's important to figure out and know to the best of our ability, what the Truth is.

It matters very much so if America knew about the impending attack or not and based on the fact that they shot a Japanese sub the same day of. well....Anyway,

The best way to respect the fallen, is to make sure we know how they fell, and why. But history shows us that we tend to make the same bad choices and decisions, it keeps on happening over and over, the cyclical nature of our History.

People want to remember, remember this, most wars can be avoided, maybe the best way to respect the fallen, is to stop supporting the Eco system of ignorance that allows such destruction and support for it to occur.

Want to Respect the fallen and honor our/the soldiers both alive and also the ones long gone from this earth? Demand your/our government to stop all it's current wars, it's current support for brutal regimes and to stop it's destruction of the rest of the world. Military industrial complex for example.

That's how you honor war vets, by not putting their children, and grandchildren and great grandchildren in wars that need to be.
---
"regardless of the suspicionss surrounding motives or knowledge"? Mr MickeyRat, Motives and knowledge are to the core, important.

It is only the dead who have seen the end of war
-Plato

I do agree, however your post about the sub is largely meaningless without a timeline of when it was sunk. When exactly or thereabouts was this sub shot at? I may and could be wrong, I didnt see that reported in the linked article. Was it BEFORE the first torpedo left the belly of a Japanese plane?

Simple fact is at this point 70 yrs later , we'd be HARD pressed to get an accurate recollection or statement os said timing.

LikeAnOcean

patrickredeyes wrote:

I believe there is a day to remember Hiroshima it's August 6th.

If people need a day to remember, I'm fine with it. It's a way of mourning... but at some point, the time for mourning is over.

Three of my grandparents are dead, and to be honest, I don't remember what day the earth was positioned in it's orbit around the sun when their deaths occured. It's not important to me.. What is important to me, is they will always be a part of my life.. Everyday.


That's just me. I'm not trying to downplay this day. I'm just trying to understand why we have to designate it. Pearl Harbor or the lives lost that day will be no less important tomorrow.


If nothing more than a reminder in our busy lives, I'm ok with that.

I personally did not know any soul lost on that day and fortunately in any war and for that I am fortunate, but feel a bit detached.

Cosmo

Gob wrote:

If we disregard the underlying political factors, is it safe to say we should take a day to remember the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives lost when Hiroshima was bombed?

just for thought.. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay a little respect today.

...
Yes... I absolutely believe that we, as a nation, should mourn for the lives lost by our hands on August, 6th.
No excuses... no justification argued... no rationale offered... simply rememberance of the lives lost.