Dec 7. A Date That Will Live In Infamy

tybird

Commy wrote:

Jason P wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

do you believe that fdr knew pearl harbor would be attacked?

If they did have reasonable belief of an attack and had the intent to use this as an excuse to enter the war, I find it hard to believe they were willing to risk the majority of the entire Pacific fleet. I do find it plausible that there were reports and hints of an attack out there prior via intelligence, but either that information was found to be not credible or lost in bureaucracy and discovered in hindsight.

If it was a conspiracy, they would have at least moved the fleet out of the harbor. It's not a very good strategy to pick a fight with Japan by sacrificing what you need to defeat Japan.

those ships were old, musty and outdated. they gave the US no advantage over japan's modern navy.

The entire US military structure was joke in 1941 compared to all of the other major powers, except for probably Russia and Italy. The only advantage for the US side was aircraft carriers.....in which Germany, Italy and Russia never fully invested. US planes were slow and under-armed, and the aforementioned ships were mostly relics from WWI and the ensuing years of peace. Showing the flag in "banana republics" was the main task of the US military in the inter-war period. Compare that to the German experience in the Spanish Civil War, the Italian "adventures" northern Africa and the Japanese war against Korea and China which had been waging for years prior to December 1941.

Don't forget that Pearl Harbor was not the only location attacked by Imperial Japan in December of 1941.

Idris

tybird wrote:

Idris wrote:

tybird wrote:

The mini-sub was sunk the very morning of the attack......and slowly passed up the chain of command on a Sunday morning. The Hawaiian islands are the most geographically isolated location on the planet. What was a Japanese mini-sub doing there in the first place? A vessel that was not capable of crossing the Pacific from Japan to Hawaii unaided. It took the Japanese fleet at least four days to move to their launch location for the attack...so they were in a war-footing prior to the 7th...and the US started the war by attacking a mini-sub in its territorial waters? Some people really need to get a grip.....Thank you to any who served....your sacrifice is remembered.

Ad nauseam..Read the entire thread -properly-. Then read over your post.

You need to read several history books properly.

Far enough away from Dec 7th? Is it cool to post? (That was not directed to you)
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I was recently thinking about WW2 and some other correlating events with regards to our more modern times and this thread started running through my head.

tybird, I hope you were not offended when I told you to read the thread over. Perhaps if I took a bit more time to explain why I told you that, it would've helped you. So in this way, it's my fault, But really, I thought my point was kinda obvious.

So, check this, I did not say said that the "US started the war by attacking a mini-sub in its territorial waters".

History is important, the accurate telling of history, as accurate as we can be. By firstly allowing both sides of the coin to be viewed and as much information possible brought out. Of course Keeping in mind the many complexities that may and do tend to often arise when trying to piece together certain events of the past.

But some things are just facts, you know, many things are known, Documentary evidence etc. Not just conjecture that many of the proponents of the propaganda use as a tool for it's manipulation of historical facts and those opinions are often very dangerous because they get passed down, year after year, generation after generation, the fiction is so intertwined....woven into the fabric of reality,
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The United States were already supplying arms and support to the allies, they were also strangling the Japanese supplies. All before the Pearl Harbor attacks. (Not gonna get into advanced warnings right now)

The American People were not interested in going to war, that changed after the Pearl Harbor attacks. Then the war machine was in full swing.

But to really understand this, we need to understand the Military Industrial complex and the other industries and corporations etc behind the scenes pulling the strings, and sometimes right in front of the scenes, with no strings.

Around about the time of the 3rd bank in 1913, that's when the US to a large extent lost itself. Selling itself.

When they let the Vampire through the doorway.

Even here in Canada, not much difference, we learn the similar history and have the same system, It's unfortunate really, because the system that exists needs fixing, needs changing.

These really are carefully crafted wars, two sides that meet directly in the middle...For example Hitler did not own some magic tree that funded his rise. Hitler was funded by the backbone of the US. The Nazi's in the 30's and the 40's and the US had much in common.

The money men cared little about who wins what, they were running the show, playing both sides.

(btw, it's not necessarily the amount of history books one reads, rather the quality of the information contained within them that matters)

chadwick

my bosses (when hauling seafood) dad is a pearl harbor survivor. i forget the man's name but it is my goal to figure it out. this man has enormous energy about him. when i first read his u.s. navy ballcap that reads, "pearl harbor survivor" or something to that affect i fell over.

i was in awe from that moment on.

he's a very peaceful and hardworking gentleman at the ripe age of 80 (or 90 something by now). this man made me feel unequal even though he treated me with the utmost respect.

i guess all i saw when looking at him was huge balls and strength. more than that even... i saw things i cannot yet express verbally or written. a man of men. straight and as hard as iron. simple and thorough. healthy as a horse and took over the controls just with his presence. the fast action in the California state fish hatcheries was at his command and he was not even employeed by the state, yet everyone was directed by his few spoken words.

i am grateful to have met and talked with him and to have the respect of such a man. he told me flat out i was a good man and a good truck driver for his son's company. i would back that huge thing into some very tight and tricky spots, nail it everytime, and with him there watching, i was on fire inside.

sometimes i cried when leaving his side because he was this fascinating. he, a very powerful figure, an elder of great propotions. a friend even for a short while. we shook hands everytime we ran into one another. he knew me by name and looked into my eyes. all i saw was everything... (a man could strive to be).

him, a full on living hero.

mickeyrat

80 years ago today......

mickeyrat

Dec. 7, 1941 (and today)

Dan Rather and Elliot Kirschner 1 hr ago

93

18

80 years ago, today... December 7, 1941. “A date which will live in infamy...” I had just turned 10 years old. 

I feel compelled to mark this day with all of you - not only because it moves me to reflection each year, but because it also provides a useful lens to which to view our own times. 

I recognize I am part of a dying breed - those who are old enough to remember the attack on Pearl Harbor. It is, like your humble narrator, receding into a form of ancient history. 

That is how the nature of life works. Big events happen and they mark the chapters in our lives. They unfold, in real time, and those of us who live through them do not know how the story will end. 

And then time goes on, and new chapters are written. People pass away and new people are born. And with the circle of life a knowledge, the knowledge of personal experience, is lost forever. 

There will be a time when people not-yet-born will look back at this pandemic or the previous administration and not understand the feelings that we have had living through these trying years. It will be something they read and note. They will think about it in a way we don’t. Unlike us, they will know what happened next. And that means they will never experience the pits of anxious anticipation that reside in so many of our stomachs. 

To watch President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s speech from December 8, 1941 is to be transported back to those frightening times.

It is impossible to convey to people who did not live through Pearl Harbor what a complete shock it was, how news of the attack spread in an age before digital communication. Neighbors knocked on doors. The radios switched on and the breaking bulletins supplanted scheduled programming. The newspapers printed special editions. We were dazed. There was a rush to enlist in whatever effort would come, including from my father who would be deemed too old to serve. 

The weeks that followed only added to the anxiety. People who lived through it will always remember a Christmas that felt like it could be the last before a cataclysmic fall. There was a very real belief that the world would succumb to the forces of fascism. Hitler was on the march in Europe and North Africa. And the Japanese were conquering East Asia and spreading across the Pacific. We expected them to steam through the Golden Gate and commence an attack on the U.S. mainland. 

Even as American naval forces rallied in response to the decimating assault on Hawaii, the Japanese continued on the offensive. There were strings of victories, including the fall of the Philippines and the Battle of Savo Island, considered the worst naval defeat in American history. 

My parents were brave, stoic people. But I could tell how precarious and fraught these months were. The look as my dad read the paper, the whisperings between he and my mother, the talk in the streets and with my gang of friends of what they were hearing at home. And the radio, almost always on - the syncopation of reports coming from around the globe transfixed me. I didn’t know it at the time, but they would also shape the rest of my life. 

Perhaps it was living through those times, coming out of the Great Depression, and the knowledge of how dark a future can seem that has shaped my worldview. I often heard my dad calm my fears with his favorite words, “courage,” and “steady.” I try to remember what we had no choice but to face. I know how much pain ensued. I know that for many the war ended in death or dismemberment. I remember hearing of the concentration camps, the death marches, the fire bombings of hundreds of thousands of civilians. 

Victory and justice are never assured. We cannot always count on happy endings. But successes are possible. Perseverance is necessary. And even when the future seems bleak, we should not succumb to pessimism. I think those who were forged in the times of Pearl Harbor and were able to see the war to victory were forever shaped by a spirit that from the soils of anguish can bloom seeds of hope. 

I call upon those memories many times to return me to equilibrium. Especially on this day. December 7. A day that not only lives in infamy, but a day that also spawned a repudiation of despair.

© 2021 Dan Rather.

https://youtu.be/lK8gYGg0dkE

dankind

Oh yeah, it's my buddy's birthday today.

Thanks for the reminder.

static111

dankind said:

Oh yeah, it's my buddy's birthday today.

Thanks for the reminder.

I wish there was a like button for this post.

mcgruff10

Crazy this was 80 years ago today.  I think my grandfather enlisted the following week; he eventually ended up in Europe and was at Utah Beach and Bastogne in some capacity.  Just taught Pearl Harbor to two of my classes, I was surprised at how much they knew.  Good stuff.  

brianlux

My father, who lived to be 96, had wanted to make it to 100  (I had wished that for him as well). He would have turned 100 earlier this year. So I can only imagine how he would feel today.  He wasn't at Pearl Harbor but, like so many other young men that day, he started making plans right away to enlist.  He ended up serving in the U.S. Navy in the Solomon Islands during the war as an aviation machinist's mate.  He told us many stories of those years.

mrussel1

My uncles, who were much older than my father, both served.  They both raced down to sign up together right after PH. They only took my Uncle George because they did not want to take brothers yet.  He was a marine island hopper.  My Uncle Mike joined a year or two later and served in European theater, and was captured at the Battle of the Bulge.  

These men were the bravest.  They fought a brutal enemy for a righteous cause, which is unusual in war.  No one will ever convince me that WWII wasn't a just a war for us.  Every other war, not so much. 

gimmesometruth27

my mom's father was a marine who fought in the pacific theater. his brother also. they were first generation americans whose parents immigrated from poland. his brother did not make it back unfortunately. i do not know all the details because my grandfather died when i was 3 and my mom did not recall that much because she said he never talked about it.

my dad's dad was a u-boat hunter that flew sea planes in the atlantic. he was wounded and he met my grandmother, a nurse from saskatoon, in a military hospital during the war.

it is mind blowing for me to think that had pearl harbor not have happened i would not be here.

HughFreakingDillon

gimmesometruth27 said:

my mom's father was a marine who fought in the pacific theater. his brother also. they were first generation americans whose parents immigrated from poland. his brother did not make it back unfortunately. i do not know all the details because my grandfather died when i was 3 and my mom did not recall that much because she said he never talked about it.

my dad's dad was a u-boat hunter that flew sea planes in the atlantic. he was wounded and he met my grandmother, a nurse from saskatoon, in a military hospital during the war.

it is mind blowing for me to think that had pearl harbor not have happened i would not be here.

we're canadian prairie brothers! lol

gimmesometruth27

HughFreakingDillon said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

my mom's father was a marine who fought in the pacific theater. his brother also. they were first generation americans whose parents immigrated from poland. his brother did not make it back unfortunately. i do not know all the details because my grandfather died when i was 3 and my mom did not recall that much because she said he never talked about it.

my dad's dad was a u-boat hunter that flew sea planes in the atlantic. he was wounded and he met my grandmother, a nurse from saskatoon, in a military hospital during the war.

it is mind blowing for me to think that had pearl harbor not have happened i would not be here.

we're canadian prairie brothers! lol

cheers!!