BIN LADEN IS DEAD

mikepegg44 wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

What "assertion" did I make, exactly? I believe I asked a question. And the point of asking that question is precicely that I don't know. But if the government is as interested in the transparency of this whole situation as they claim to be, then they should be answering those questions so we do know why they couldn't capture an unarmed man. I'm just asking for answers, a little clarity, a little consistency.
No need to get uppity.

By the way, for having claimed not to know yourself, you rattle off a fairly descriptive account yourself...

fair enough, I may have jumped to the conclusion you were trying to make a commentary about whether or not the killing was justified...if that wasn't your assertion than I apologize
I did get a little detailed I suppose, just guessing though...either that or I was there I am quite the bad ass

No problem.

But just to clarify - as I see it, whether the killing was "justifed"/justifiable is pretty much dependent on the answer to the question I was asking. My strong suspicion is that it was not. But as we agree, none of us really know what happened, and they're not doing a good job of telling us.

Well, he had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, so it's safe to say that he was prepared for the possibility that he'd be discovered at some point. Also, the bomb could have been in the room, not just on him, although him wearing it was the first thought I had. As it turns out, they have said that they had to operate under the assumption he was wearing a suicide vest.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 74701e.111

Just imagine if that had been the case and they gave him the opportunity to detonate the bomb because they were trying to capture him even though he refused to surrender. I don't know how many SEALs were in the room at the time, but it's safe to say it was more than 1. So, yeah, bin Laden would still be dead but the mission couldn't really be considered a success. To al-Qadea, he would have not just died a martyr, he would have died a hero who won his battle with the American troops based on body count. In that way, his death would have actually strengthened al-Qaeda instead of weakening it.

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

One thing that stands out for me from this is that he seems to be saying that surrender or killing were the only possibilities. He doesn't even look at the elephant in the room - even if he didn't surrender, why were a whole troop of Navy SEALs incapable of overpowering and capturing a single unarmed man?

Here's the simple answer: they didn't know if he had any sort of bomb or other type of weapon under his clothes. If he didn't have his hands in the air and empty, then how can they be sure he's not going to grab a weapon or a device to detonate a bomb under his clothes? Unless he was naked when they walked in the room, they had to consider their own safety in that situation. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he would have decided to kill himself and take them all out with him rather than let them capture or kill him. Also, if he was reaching for a weapon, who's to say that they'd be able to subdue him before he gets to fire a round or 2 at them? That was not the time for them to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

That could be a possibilty. Two things would make me doubt it, though.

First, why would he be be wearing a hidden bomb when it was a surprise raid? I know there are some wild assumptions about turrurists out there, but I doubt anyone believes that their underwear of choice is a suicide vest!

Second, if it was the case, surely they would have used it as a justification by now. Why not say, "He appeared to be unarmed, but there was reason to believe he was wearing a suicide vest."

While it may have been improbable, it was plausible. Why would any of those SEALs risk getting himself and his fellow SEALs killed by assuming that he wasn't going to do something like that? He had to realize that if he didn't immediately surrender that they would kill him and he still decided not to surrender. If you were one of those SEALs, wouldn't that make you suspect that he wasn't going to go quietly, especially when you were warned that he might have a suicide vest?

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Well, he had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, so it's safe to say that he was prepared for the possibility that he'd be discovered at some point.

That's a very different thing from wearing a suicide vest on the off-chance that you might be discovered.

Monster Rain wrote:

As it turns out, they have said that they had to operate under the assumption he was wearing a suicide vest.

Ok, fair enough, they did say it. Still, I think it's highly improbable that - unless he was aware there was going to be a raid - he would be wearing a vest. And if on entering the room, they could see that there were guns there, but he wasn't armed with them, it would be an obvious assumption that he was taken by surprise by the raid, and therefore almost certainly wouldn't be wearing a suicide vest.

Monster Rain wrote:

Just imagine if that had been the case and they gave him the opportunity to detonate the bomb because they were trying to capture him even though he refused to surrender. I don't know how many SEALs were in the room at the time, but it's safe to say it was more than 1. So, yeah, bin Laden would still be dead but the mission couldn't really be considered a success. To al-Qadea, he would have not just died a martyr, he would have died a hero who won his battle with the American troops based on body count. In that way, his death would have actually strengthened al-Qaeda instead of weakening it.

An interesting point, considering that there are some who are saying that that is what actually happened:

Link: Joshua Holland: Did Osama bin Laden Win the “War on Terror”?http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2644/joshua_holland_did_osama_bin_laden_win/

I don't care. Governments should keep secrets and this is one of them. No good can come out of revealing the exact details. Those that criticize will find a way to criticize. Those that support will support regardless. We will fit the reason to our world view, so there's no good that can come from it.

He's dead. The world is no less of a place without him. The only folks that will miss him are those that have been convinced that dying for your cause is a good thing. So, they are applauding us for granting him the very wish he asks of his followers. May he be enjoying his 72 vegans as we speak.

the last word on Osama bin Laden... definitely worth 15 minutes of your time;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OATF_BXEx8M

Apparantly, relations between the US and Pakistan have improved quite a bit since the raid!

Pakistani Intelligence Announces Its Full Cooperation With U.S. Forces During Upcoming Top Secret June 12 Drone Strike On Al-Qaeda At 5:23 A.M. Near Small Town Of Razmani In North Waziristan

ISLAMABAD—Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency restated Thursday its commitment to the fight against terrorism, pledging full cooperation with U.S. forces during the upcoming strike on an al-Qaeda safe house on June 12 at 5:23 a.m. near the small town of Razmani in the remote tribal region of North Waziristan.

At a hastily convened press conference, ISI chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha called Pakistan's long- standing partnership with the United States "stronger than ever," explaining that both countries share an interest in rooting out al-Qaeda before its leaders have time to gather their secret cache of hidden weapons and move to a new location, possibly a tribal area in northwest Pakistan where Pasha said U.S. intelligence is limited in both its sophistication and reach.

"Make no mistake, Pakistan stands shoulder to shoulder with our American allies in hunting down those who threaten our national security," said Pasha, circling the exact location of the safe house on a large satellite photo of the town. "And we will show no mercy in targeting them, whether it be on the battlefield or, perhaps, in a bunker where the walls are thicker and offer better protection from Predator drone attacks."

"These are highly dangerous men," he continued, "who will be taken out at 5:23 a.m. I repeat: The strike begins at 5:23 a.m."

Pasha emphasized the ISI's extensive integration with U.S. forces in planning the attack, saying that the specific time was agreed upon to ensure the terrorists wouldn't try to escape across the porous Afghan border, which he noted is often poorly guarded—especially near the town of Shirhani—at that hour of the morning.

Pasha added that the drones would be coming from the west, targeting the main part of the compound where al-Qaeda operatives would likely be sleeping and not loading all laptops, assault rifles, sensitive documents detailing plans for future attacks, and shoulder-to-air missile launchers into pickup trucks and fleeing as quickly as possible.

"Throughout the mission, we will be in constant contact with American commanders, providing up-to-the minute intelligence assessments and information on enemy movements," Pasha said. "As the strike unfolds, real-time updates will be transmitted to them via UHF frequency 11.2535."

Added Pasha, "We've also changed the code words we use with the Americans, which is vital to our overall communications strategy."

.....

http://www.theonion.com/articles/pakistani-intelligence-announces-its-full-cooperat,20681/?utm_source=recentnews

he still stands wrote:

haha... dude, I read about three paragraphs and probably had this wicked incredulous look on my face before I realized it was fake! Next time post The Onion link at the TOP of the article

That was my tactical decision.