Drumming on the Orpheum Theater show...

Soulfire42 · April 2011

I really do love the older drumming from Dave (in fact, both Daves). I think that while Eddie may have had some issues with him personally, I think those issues would largely be irrelevant to modern Eddie. It's a damn shame PJ lost him and I say that without intending the slightest disrespect to their other drummers. I just think Dave was magic with PJ. I'm one who is hoping that both parties get over any lingering differences and see fit to jam out some music together for the 20th.

NorthShoreBlues · April 2011

gndcd402 wrote:

dave had so much more going on and totally knew how to groove much better than matt. my favorite two performances by dave are these:

atlanta 94 porch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9xbV0IG51g
vegas 93 tremor christ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAHmpnncmT8

Whoa!!! Thanks for posting those . . .

vegas 93 w/ Dave temor christ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAHmpnncmT8
Japan 95 w/ Jack temor christ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L00xXKL ... re=related
Italy 2006 w/ Matt tremor christ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3ODLhFj ... re=related

Interesting to watch/listen to each Tremor Christ in a row starting with 93 . . . Poor Jack has hardly anything to hit, his drum kit is 1/3 of Dave and Matt's.

Oh man, that Vegas 93 w/ dave sounds sooo good.

:ugeek:

Eraserhead · April 2011

The drumming is amazing on the boot - shame it's not the full show!

Love the Rats/Blood/Release ending to the main set.

clashman · April 2011

yeah, too much cymbals! but he had a great feeling, and i like his drum sound.

twojawas · April 2011

Kanye East wrote:

Anyone else notice how awesome the drums are for that show? Wow!

I'm a huge Matt Cameron fan, but I think Abbruzzese is better.

Please dont crush me

The drums were the first thing that stood out for me on this album. Absolutely amazing. This is fast becoming my favourite live PJ recording.

PhilippH · April 2011

hello.

dave is the sh**t!!! i love his drumming, he is a hard hitter and plays along with the guitar, so unique! cymbal-wise he is outstanding - timing is terrific. i love the unplugged drumming too, he plays as it is his last time on stage - like i said a hard hitter!!!

ph.

Kanye East · April 2011

I guess I'm not the only one who feels this way

jets521 · April 2011

if Dave A. was the best drummer PJ ever had.......then why was he fired?

MW3384 · April 2011

I forgot what some of the songs sounded like with Dave. I agree he was the best all around drummer for the time but Ed hated him and what Ed says goes. I am surprised he never threw Stone out of the group as well, just joking about Stone. I never heard the orpheum show until now. It's incredible. Ed is kinda of working immortality out still had not evolved yet and I miss those long sustained high and low note drops Ed used to be able to do before cigs and old age took some of his voice dominance away. But the show is amazing

Dark Star · April 2011

.....

evenflow82 · April 2011

I love Dave A., am cool with Matt but man, Jack's like stuff with the band is just painful. It's like an old tired man trying to run a sprint; he can't keep up.

jets521 · April 2011

evenflow82 wrote:

I love Dave A., am cool with Matt but man, Jack's like stuff with the band is just painful. It's like an old tired man trying to run a sprint; he can't keep up.

its different strokes for different folks. I read Uncle Neil Young was blown away by Jack's drumming during the Mirrorball sessions/tour. I personally like Jack alot..but Matt is No. 1 for me.

its a never ending cycle of debate.

STT757 · April 2011

jets521 wrote:

evenflow82 wrote:

I love Dave A., am cool with Matt but man, Jack's like stuff with the band is just painful. It's like an old tired man trying to run a sprint; he can't keep up.

I read Uncle Neil Young was blown away by Jack's drumming during the Mirrorball sessions/tour.

its a never ending cycle of debate.

I think Uncle Neil was trying to be supportive to Pearl Jam, remember Jack Irons was booed when introduced at some of the '95 shows including Voters for Choice in Washington DC. I have that bootleg, Jack was not welcomed with open arms by the fans.

I've seen Jack live with Pearl Jam twice, and I've probably listened to every show he played with them on a bootleg or through Pearl Jam radio. He was cool for the No Code songs, but he never got any of the Ten, Vs. and Vitalogy songs down. Dave took the Ten songs and made them his own, Matt came aboard in 1998 and immediately mastered the catalog. Just go and listen to Matt on "Live on Two Legs", he never sounded better than that first tour.

Jack made it ok for Pearl Jam to become sloppy, some real sloppy shows with Jack.

Spoken · April 2011

This show is incredible!

CJMST3K · April 2011

STT757 wrote:

I've seen Jack live with Pearl Jam twice, and I've probably listened to every show he played with them on a bootleg or through Pearl Jam radio. He was cool for the No Code songs, but he never got any of the Ten, Vs. and Vitalogy songs down. Dave took the Ten songs and made them his own, Matt came aboard in 1998 and immediately mastered the catalog. Just go and listen to Matt on "Live on Two Legs", he never sounded better than that first tour.

Jack made it ok for Pearl Jam to become sloppy, some real sloppy shows with Jack.

I'd disagree with MC "mastering" the catalog. But he did sound best in 1998. But his playing of the pre-jack material never was as good as Dave's. He has a lot of energy, but not a lot of style on the songs. A lack of contrast, and often just playing a generic beat that could be interchanged with other songs. I'd even say that Jack was more in-line with Dave on a lot more of the groove than Matt.

Here's a comparison I made on this topic in another thread:

Comparison of Dave, Jack and Matt on "Blood"

Dave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoclgBmo ... annel_page

Dave's timing was great. It lined up with the guitar changes. The right hand is playing the china and/or crashes with the guitar changes, and his left hand is keeping a straight snare beat. The snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure as the count restarts each go-around. It has a great musicality to it. Dave also did great, tight rudiments on a tight hihat during this song.

Here's Jack playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsP0TQvKniQ

Jack's timing was pretty much identical with Dave's. Jack's right hand was striking the cymbals and his left was keeping a straight snare beat, once again the snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure. He used different cymbals (a ride many times), but Jack "got it" as far as how the cymbals interlocked with the guitar changes, while keeping a steady on the snare. Jack couldn't do the rudiments (imho as a drummer), so he just did a simple beat on the hihat, and his fills were a bit loose. Seeing as how he got the rest of the song right, I won't begrudge him this difference. Dave's "thing" was rudiments, so it's hard for most drummers to compare on that part.

Here's Matt playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_B2pMTCEw

I chose this audience video because it sounded a little less muddy than the pro-shot stuff, and on the latter-half of the video you can see Matt playing more at the 2:00 mark, than the pro-shot stuff. Matt's timing on cymbals is a basic beat - he's not hitting the crashes in timing with the music. Matt's just kinda playing a generic beat and slamming the crashes in time with himself, regardless of how the rest of the song goes. His cymbal hits and snare hits line up twice per measure.

Now I know my description may be lost on some... if you can't hear the difference, I truly envy you. This song used to be a favorite because of how intertwined the cymbal hits and guitar intertwined, plus the rudiments, and now with all the changes, it is no longer.

For those who complain that "Dave played cymbals too much", then where are you now on this? If you count, every measure, Matt is hitting the cymbals 6 times. Dave is only hitting them 4 times. This makes it muddy sounding when Matt is playing (plus not in time with the guitar changes), whereas Dave's cymbal hits were spaced out, so you could hear each one.

In order of my preference on Blood: Dave, Jack, Matt

HailHailOZ · April 2011

jets521 wrote:

its different strokes for different folks. its a never ending cycle of debate.

It has to be agreed that each drummer was/played perfectly for his time with the band and we can only assume what each album would have been like with a different man behind the kit. Live is sort of the same beast. For me they all overlap in some way... Krusen and Abbruzzese are both clean hard hitters but Dave A has a certain groove that Jack has. Matt has feel and certain aspects of his playing are drumming perfection but he's also very often loose like Jack.

The drummer of Pearl Jam currently is the guy that fits drumming wise and personality wise. If Jack didn't leave he'd still be there IMO.

This whole thread is a reason we need to see the PJ drummer trade-off finale to PJ20

Spoken · April 2011

Listen to "Porch" on this show...
It's sick.

yosi · April 2011

BB29347 wrote:

Depends on the song IMO, EG I much prefer RVM with Matt. Listen to the breakdown in RVM on the Orpheum show with Dave - he just kind of plays along repeating the same little pattern over and over.

It's also a matter of taste. To me Dave's cymbal use gets a bit tiresome in a live show.

I'm with you here. It really depends on the song. And sometimes it breaks down even more than that and it's I like what Dave is doing here than what Matt does, but on this other part of the song, what Matt does is better.

They're both excellent technical drummers with incredibly different style.

With that said, I think that Matt is more well rounded than Dave. Sure while there are some songs that Dave plays that I prefer, I just don't think his style would have fit as well with where PJ have gone post Vitalogy, and even on how they play some of those songs now.

yosi · April 2011

CJMST3K wrote:

STT757 wrote:

I've seen Jack live with Pearl Jam twice, and I've probably listened to every show he played with them on a bootleg or through Pearl Jam radio. He was cool for the No Code songs, but he never got any of the Ten, Vs. and Vitalogy songs down. Dave took the Ten songs and made them his own, Matt came aboard in 1998 and immediately mastered the catalog. Just go and listen to Matt on "Live on Two Legs", he never sounded better than that first tour.

Jack made it ok for Pearl Jam to become sloppy, some real sloppy shows with Jack.

I'd disagree with MC "mastering" the catalog. But he did sound best in 1998. But his playing of the pre-jack material never was as good as Dave's. He has a lot of energy, but not a lot of style on the songs. A lack of contrast, and often just playing a generic beat that could be interchanged with other songs. I'd even say that Jack was more in-line with Dave on a lot more of the groove than Matt.

Here's a comparison I made on this topic in another thread:

Comparison of Dave, Jack and Matt on "Blood"

Dave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoclgBmo ... annel_page

Dave's timing was great. It lined up with the guitar changes. The right hand is playing the china and/or crashes with the guitar changes, and his left hand is keeping a straight snare beat. The snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure as the count restarts each go-around. It has a great musicality to it. Dave also did great, tight rudiments on a tight hihat during this song.

Here's Jack playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsP0TQvKniQ

Jack's timing was pretty much identical with Dave's. Jack's right hand was striking the cymbals and his left was keeping a straight snare beat, once again the snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure. He used different cymbals (a ride many times), but Jack "got it" as far as how the cymbals interlocked with the guitar changes, while keeping a steady on the snare. Jack couldn't do the rudiments (imho as a drummer), so he just did a simple beat on the hihat, and his fills were a bit loose. Seeing as how he got the rest of the song right, I won't begrudge him this difference. Dave's "thing" was rudiments, so it's hard for most drummers to compare on that part.

Here's Matt playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_B2pMTCEw

I chose this audience video because it sounded a little less muddy than the pro-shot stuff, and on the latter-half of the video you can see Matt playing more at the 2:00 mark, than the pro-shot stuff. Matt's timing on cymbals is a basic beat - he's not hitting the crashes in timing with the music. Matt's just kinda playing a generic beat and slamming the crashes in time with himself, regardless of how the rest of the song goes. His cymbal hits and snare hits line up twice per measure.

Now I know my description may be lost on some... if you can't hear the difference, I truly envy you. This song used to be a favorite because of how intertwined the cymbal hits and guitar intertwined, plus the rudiments, and now with all the changes, it is no longer.

For those who complain that "Dave played cymbals too much", then where are you now on this? If you count, every measure, Matt is hitting the cymbals 6 times. Dave is only hitting them 4 times. This makes it muddy sounding when Matt is playing (plus not in time with the guitar changes), whereas Dave's cymbal hits were spaced out, so you could hear each one.

In order of my preference on Blood: Dave, Jack, Matt

Great breakdown. To be honest, while I do like what Dave and Jack are doing as opposed to what Matt is doing during the chorus, Jack's playing during the rest of the song just isn't as good as what Matt is doing. At least Matt is doing some good rudiments, but Jack just didn't have the chops Matt has. Maybe more style, but I think some of it is still lost.

So I'll agree with with liking Dave most on Blood, but then Matt then Jack.

But also, if you take a song like Corduroy for instance, which was originally a Dave song, I much prefer how Matt plays it.

Matt -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq_ejd7FVnM

Great fills, great cymbals and changes up the beat between sections. Also he's just very tight. I especially like how Matt plays the bridge before the guitar solo starting around 2:55. His fills and cymbal work here take the song to another level.

Here's Jack -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E1t06Ee47k

In my opinion, just pretty boring in general. Nothing special with the fills, and he plays essentially the same beat throughout. I think also the song sounds a little loose this way. I love how much tighter the song is with Matt.

Unfortunately I couldn't find video of Dave A. playing this, but if you listen to the album version its not nearly as good as what Matt is doing. Just pretty boring I find.

CJMST3K · April 2011

yosi wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

STT757 wrote:

I've seen Jack live with Pearl Jam twice, and I've probably listened to every show he played with them on a bootleg or through Pearl Jam radio. He was cool for the No Code songs, but he never got any of the Ten, Vs. and Vitalogy songs down. Dave took the Ten songs and made them his own, Matt came aboard in 1998 and immediately mastered the catalog. Just go and listen to Matt on "Live on Two Legs", he never sounded better than that first tour.

Jack made it ok for Pearl Jam to become sloppy, some real sloppy shows with Jack.

I'd disagree with MC "mastering" the catalog. But he did sound best in 1998. But his playing of the pre-jack material never was as good as Dave's. He has a lot of energy, but not a lot of style on the songs. A lack of contrast, and often just playing a generic beat that could be interchanged with other songs. I'd even say that Jack was more in-line with Dave on a lot more of the groove than Matt.

Here's a comparison I made on this topic in another thread:

Comparison of Dave, Jack and Matt on "Blood"

Dave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoclgBmo ... annel_page

Dave's timing was great. It lined up with the guitar changes. The right hand is playing the china and/or crashes with the guitar changes, and his left hand is keeping a straight snare beat. The snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure as the count restarts each go-around. It has a great musicality to it. Dave also did great, tight rudiments on a tight hihat during this song.

Here's Jack playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsP0TQvKniQ

Jack's timing was pretty much identical with Dave's. Jack's right hand was striking the cymbals and his left was keeping a straight snare beat, once again the snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure. He used different cymbals (a ride many times), but Jack "got it" as far as how the cymbals interlocked with the guitar changes, while keeping a steady on the snare. Jack couldn't do the rudiments (imho as a drummer), so he just did a simple beat on the hihat, and his fills were a bit loose. Seeing as how he got the rest of the song right, I won't begrudge him this difference. Dave's "thing" was rudiments, so it's hard for most drummers to compare on that part.

Here's Matt playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_B2pMTCEw

I chose this audience video because it sounded a little less muddy than the pro-shot stuff, and on the latter-half of the video you can see Matt playing more at the 2:00 mark, than the pro-shot stuff. Matt's timing on cymbals is a basic beat - he's not hitting the crashes in timing with the music. Matt's just kinda playing a generic beat and slamming the crashes in time with himself, regardless of how the rest of the song goes. His cymbal hits and snare hits line up twice per measure.

Now I know my description may be lost on some... if you can't hear the difference, I truly envy you. This song used to be a favorite because of how intertwined the cymbal hits and guitar intertwined, plus the rudiments, and now with all the changes, it is no longer.

For those who complain that "Dave played cymbals too much", then where are you now on this? If you count, every measure, Matt is hitting the cymbals 6 times. Dave is only hitting them 4 times. This makes it muddy sounding when Matt is playing (plus not in time with the guitar changes), whereas Dave's cymbal hits were spaced out, so you could hear each one.

In order of my preference on Blood: Dave, Jack, Matt

Great breakdown. To be honest, while I do like what Dave and Jack are doing as opposed to what Matt is doing during the chorus, Jack's playing during the rest of the song just isn't as good as what Matt is doing. At least Matt is doing some good rudiments, but Jack just didn't have the chops Matt has. Maybe more style, but I think some of it is still lost.

So I'll agree with with liking Dave most on Blood, but then Matt then Jack.

But also, if you take a song like Corduroy for instance, which was originally a Dave song, I much prefer how Matt plays it.

Matt -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq_ejd7FVnM

Great fills, great cymbals and changes up the beat between sections. Also he's just very tight. I especially like how Matt plays the bridge before the guitar solo starting around 2:55. His fills and cymbal work here take the song to another level.

Here's Jack -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E1t06Ee47k

In my opinion, just pretty boring in general. Nothing special with the fills, and he plays essentially the same beat throughout. I think also the song sounds a little loose this way. I love how much tighter the song is with Matt.

Unfortunately I couldn't find video of Dave A. playing this, but if you listen to the album version its not nearly as good as what Matt is doing. Just pretty boring I find.

Well, given that the song wasn't out for too long before Dave A was let go, I wouldn't begrudge him that the band wasn't jamming too long on a lot of the songs. After they toured extensively with Sonic Youth, that's when PJ really developed a long-jam approach, but this was post-Dave. He didn't crowd songs like Evenflow with unnecessary drum solos... though I actually would have loved to have seen Dave play a drum solo. But it's kinda a grandiose thing, and isn't needed to have great drumming apparent.

I like how Dave does not crowd the songs. Matt definitely shines for moments here and there but is fairly flat for the majority of the early songs. A groove that is good but not great; a one-size-fits-all approach to the hi-hat. I'd rather enjoy the songs to their fullest for 95% and not have those fleeting short moments, rather than hear flat drums with moments of inspirational improvisation.

It's all about the groove. Dave had tremendous tight groove on the first three albums. Jack had a loose groove on the fourth and fifth albums. And Matt is very creative on his own PJ material, and actually really cool to drum to his stuff that HE wrote, but he doesn't have Dave's tight and funk oriented groove, nor Jack's delicate loose groove for the first five albums. I'd wish the band would bury the first five albums, and only play Matt material. It just suits Matt's playing best to just play his material.

Drumming on the Orpheum Theater show...

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